Regarding the creation of a new forum
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 16, 2011 13:45:29 GMT
Oy, cutting out the multiple-site-owner system? We have three of those, ya know. We can't change the way the forum is run just cause we change hosts.
I'll simplify this with a poll. If, as Fox said, there is not a clear strong majority pro-moving, then we won't even bother. Fox is right; a failed experiment is far worse than no experiment at all.
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Post by GloveParty on Jun 16, 2011 14:00:50 GMT
Disabled, why in the heck do you think we're only about dan-balls just because we don't want them removed?
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 16, 2011 14:10:52 GMT
I think that was more of a punny statement about how we don't talk a lot about dan-ball anymore, which is of course an utter nontruth. Not all Dan-Ball discussion is in the DB board, although there's plenty of that still going on. It's completely mixed in with much of what we do: References, names, avatars, signatures, everything.
Of course, that isn't what this thread is about.
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Jun 16, 2011 15:34:01 GMT
No, no, no. No removal of Danballs. I can tell you read halfway through the OP and made a post. Everything you say will be disregarded if you can't give a reason for keeping it. It doesn't serve much of a use, but because its potentially detrimental means "Because I like it" isn't valid. Another request: I'd like OpenID authentication support. I don't want to store a password on a server that >=4 people I don't fully trust have FTP access to. Also makes it more safe for those people who use the same password on more then one site. And of course you can have my crawler... *edit* Now that I think about it, since this community is more about dan-balls then about dan-ball, I kinda lost interest anyways. So don't value my opinion too much... Now, i'm not entirely sure what OpenID Authentication is, and i'm sure its a good idea, and yes, i'm someone who reuses passwords everywhere, but if you want to be a member of any website, you're going to have to learn to trust the people who run the server. I'll admit, I think some sort of security is a good idea. I think we all remember what happened to the original Rosasecta *cough*pickle*cough*. I know its a different scenario, but the same warning about security with your data applies. Oy, cutting out the multiple-site-owner system? We have three of those, ya know. We can't change the way the forum is run just cause we change hosts. I'll simplify this with a poll. If, as Fox said, there is not a clear strong majority pro-moving, then we won't even bother. Fox is right; a failed experiment is far worse than no experiment at all. I'm glad you decided to see the logic of it.
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Post by Artifact123 on Jun 16, 2011 15:54:46 GMT
I don't like this Idea. Karma encourages good behavior and Badges And Dan-Balls encourage activity.
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Jun 16, 2011 16:22:13 GMT
I don't like this Idea. Karma encourages good behavior and Badges And Dan-Balls encourage activity. The thing is, Karma doesn't encourage good behaviour. Its mostly given out for contests, and some people enjoy negative karma. Its really a number without purpose. Badges are staying, but Dan-Balls aren't very useful, and when people are trying to acquire them, the only thing it encourages are spammy, noncontributing posts.
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Post by D_M-01 on Jun 16, 2011 16:46:22 GMT
What annoys me the most about this proposal is that there are users who openly refuse to even try out the new software once it is completed. How are they supposed to know how if it will be for better or worse for the forum if they never try it? This mindset is that of a stubborn child. Oy, cutting out the multiple-site-owner system? We have three of those, ya know. We can't change the way the forum is run just cause we change hosts. I'll simplify this with a poll. If, as Fox said, there is not a clear strong majority pro-moving, then we won't even bother. Fox is right; a failed experiment is far worse than no experiment at all. Firstly, that is incorrect. How are we able to know whether this experiment is going to be a failure unless we try it out ourselves? We learn from our mistakes, and I feel that this testing of new software is a necessary step towards learning the flexibility of the forum community. I am getting tired of hearing users blindly refusing to test the software because of some simple changes. Once the software is finished, AND you try it for a week, then you have the right to say you do not like it. Until then, you are contributing nothing more to this debate other than a heated, baseless argument.
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Post by mdog95 on Jun 16, 2011 20:03:15 GMT
I could care less if the Karma system was removed, but removing the Dan-Balls is overall a bad idea. I've never seen people post spam on anything other than the spam board to get extra DB's, but then again, I haven't been here very long, so I have no ground there. I do, however, believe that if we were to keep good graphics coming, they would need to cost something. Who would spend hours or even days on end making graphics for somebody else and then except the reward to be the satisfaction of somebody else being happy about it? It's just not human nature to put tons of effort into something for no physical reward. Other than that problem, I can't think of anything else to say that nobody has already said.
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Post by monokr0me on Jun 16, 2011 20:09:07 GMT
I could care less if the Karma system was removed, but removing the Dan-Balls is overall a bad idea. I've never seen people post spam on anything other than the spam board to get extra DB's, but then again, I haven't been here very long, so I have no ground there. I do, however, believe that if we were to keep good graphics coming, they would need to cost something. Who would spend hours or even days on end making graphics for somebody else and then except the reward to be the satisfaction of somebody else being happy about it? It's just not human nature to put tons of effort into something for no physical reward. Other than that problem, I can't think of anything else to say that nobody has already said. The thing is, very few people here actually make quality graphics; The rest churn out 500 mediocre images daily just for the sake of getting dan-balls, just for... what? I'd rather they make fewer graphics, and taking time to learn better techniques and improving.
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Post by monokr0me on Jun 16, 2011 20:19:42 GMT
And why would users stop making graphics simply because we don't have a currency?
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Post by monokr0me on Jun 16, 2011 20:48:40 GMT
I disagree. Once people aren't churning out graphics for the sake of earning dan-balls, they will slow down and instead focus on improving their style, thus improving everyone's quality of graphics.
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Post by monokr0me on Jun 16, 2011 20:55:58 GMT
I suspect most people start making graphics for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. Then they improve as they make more images for other people for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. That's my best guess. I may be totally wrong, but it sounds right to me... The thing is, though, I've been here for years, and people in general aren't improving; rather, they continue to create the same mediocre style for each customer that comes through their shop.
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Post by mdog95 on Jun 16, 2011 21:00:23 GMT
I suspect most people start making graphics for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. Then they improve as they make more images for other people for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. That's my best guess. I may be totally wrong, but it sounds right to me... The thing is, though, I've been here for years, and people in general aren't improving; rather, they continue to create the same mediocre style for each customer that comes through their shop. I have a feeling that's directed more towards me than the other average artists here, but notice that even the good graphic artists expect a physical reward for their hard work; not just the average ones.
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Post by monokr0me on Jun 16, 2011 21:10:25 GMT
It wasn't directed towards anybody, and the good graphics artists deserve a reward because the spent time perfecting their skill, instead of stopping a quarter through their career to try and earn "Dan-Balls". Regardless, you'll probably notice that the 'good' graphics artists' shops are considerably cheaper than others, simply because they, too, could care less about Dan-balls.
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Post by disabled on Jun 16, 2011 22:05:44 GMT
1) Now, i'm not entirely sure what OpenID Authentication is, 2) and yes, i'm someone who reuses passwords everywhere, 3) but if you want to be a member of any website, you're going to have to learn to trust the people who run the server. 1) OpenID is a system where you register at an authentication provider (many Mail providers also provide OpenID) and when you want to register with a website, it doesn't ask for a password, but for a token from your OpenID provider. That the website can't loose your password because it never gets it. Of course you can additionally still provide passwords for those who don't care about security. 2) Bad choice 3) Funny how in times where more passwords get leaked you ask me to trust a random guy who for all I know knows nothing about XSS/ SQLIA/... or even how to secure his computer. I mean if youre a better programmer then what Sony hires (although thats not hard), you might convince me...
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Post by GloveParty on Jun 16, 2011 22:53:06 GMT
Mono, I disagree with you. I don't think people will focus on improving their style. I think they'll just plain stop making graphics. I notice no free graphics stores, except for a few mediocre ones. Practically ALL of the shops ask for dan-balls. And as... Codnchips I think?... said, I have nver seen a post only for dan-balls. Furthermore, dan-balls have been shown to have people recruiting other people- Notably waaaaay bck when when TSL revived us. If not for DBs, we wouldn't be here right now. Anyway, the dan-ball system encourages recruiting and an open graphics system.
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Post by James on Jun 16, 2011 23:03:06 GMT
Another request: I'd like OpenID authentication support. I don't want to store a password on a server that >=4 people I don't fully trust have FTP access to. Also makes it more safe for those people who use the same password on more then one site. And of course you can have my crawler... *edit* Now that I think about it, since this community is more about dan-balls then about dan-ball, I kinda lost interest anyways. So don't value my opinion too much... I use salted hashes on the passwords. Is that good enough? I do an md5 after appending and prepending a bunch of symbols onto the password. Even if the server is compromised, rainbow tables wouldn't work. Although I'm not going to lie, if you have a better way to hash the passwords I'm up for it (like a dynamic salt for example). Admittedly I haven't looked into password security any further than plain salted hashes. Also, about the single site owner thing. That's something that can be discussed later, because /technically/ there's no limit. It's just that you'll see how much better it is to have a single admin when you get full control of the code. Either way the rank won't even exist until you guys agree on having just one site admin, otherwise there's no point in having that rank at all. Just a regular admin rank would be enough (but of course they'd be allowed to add extra admins, that'd be the only difference).
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Post by D_M-01 on Jun 16, 2011 23:17:01 GMT
Mono, I disagree with you. I don't think people will focus on improving their style. I think they'll just plain stop making graphics. I notice no free graphics stores, except for a few mediocre ones. Practically ALL of the shops ask for dan-balls. And as... Codnchips I think?... said, I have nver seen a post only for dan-balls. Furthermore, dan-balls have been shown to have people recruiting other people- Notably waaaaay bck when when TSL revived us. If not for DBs, we wouldn't be here right now. Anyway, the dan-ball system encourages recruiting and an open graphics system. Then how would you explain a site like 'DeviantART'? I do not believe they have a currency system, and they seem to be regularly active. Graphic artists do not create their images solely for the sake of making money. If you were to ever engage in graphic art yourself, you would notice that users who do so normally do it to improved their own capabilities, and further excel their knowledge. Furthermore, I do not even recall you being present when user: 'TheShadowLord' was engaging in an entire forum revival. If this is the case, then you have no evidence as to whether Dan-Balls were the cause of such.
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Post by GloveParty on Jun 16, 2011 23:20:41 GMT
Mech, this isn't an art site. It's not Deviant Art. I explain deviantART by DeviantART being an art site. I mean, why don't we just all offer it fo free now then?
And I know my history Mech. TSL ahd wanted some stars, not knowing the forum was dead, but didn't have the dan-balls, so he foudn out it was dead and recruited a bunch of people. Ask an old member sometime. Theyshould be able to tell you.
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Post by disabled on Jun 16, 2011 23:21:30 GMT
I use salted hashes on the passwords. Is that good enough? If 4 people have FTP access and can inject a password logger at all times or the rest of the code has a security flaw and a logger is easily installed thats not enough. It protects you against SQL dumps. Thats it. Still, since I use different passwords most of the time, it wouldn't really affect me. I thinks thats my last post here about security, because its kinda off topic.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 16, 2011 23:22:20 GMT
Um, DeviantArt doesn't really work as an analogy when we are a forum that is unrelated to graphics while deviantArt is a site that is solely focused on user-created graphics...
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Post by James on Jun 16, 2011 23:25:27 GMT
Technically dA has a currency system, it's just never been relevant. Something called llama badges. It's relatively new and I still don't fully understand it. Either way it's pretty separate from the art submission, seems more like something they added just for shits and giggles.
Anyways, regarding the whole controversy over the graphics shops, I suppose I have no choice but to be blunt here:
The graphics here are not good.
The point I'm trying to make is that, if you're just making graphics for the sake of dan-balls, you're not going to improve. You're making graphics just for the sake of raising that number of yours. If you're willing to make graphics without the motivation of some arbitrary dan-ball system, you actually have some interest in design and are wiling to improve your style. In my 3-4 years here, I've never seen anybody get better at design through the shops. I didn't get any better at design until I gave up with trying to make a graphics shop and tried designing my own site, along with joining some design forums. I noticed the same thing with GGoodie and Mono. Other than them, I can't say I've seen any real improvement in style with the other members. Point being that the dan-ball system isn't going to make you any better at design. It might be a tough idea to swallow for some of you, but it's the truth.
Regardless, please at least try the software prototype when it'll be done in a couple of weeks (estimated) if you're still a naysayer based on personal preference. The progress I've made and will be making is pretty scalable, so if you guys reject it, I'm just using the forum software for my own sites and projects anyways, as well as releasing it open source for other people to download. The only difference oh my part as the developer would be the time it takes to redesign the page icons (will probably take a couple of hours, but hey, I need to work on designing my icons quicker anyways).
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Post by D_M-01 on Jun 16, 2011 23:26:02 GMT
Mech, this isn't an art site. It's not Deviant Art. I explain deviantART by DeviantART being an art site. I mean, why don't we just all offer it fo free now then? And I know my history Mech. TSL ahd wanted some stars, not knowing the forum was dead, but didn't have the dan-balls, so he foudn out it was dead and recruited a bunch of people. Ask an old member sometime. Theyshould be able to tell you. Did you ever consider that the reason they are so active is because they are an engaging community that shares and gives away its graphics? Did you also consider that regardless of whether TheShadowLord figured out that the forum was "dead", it could not just necessarily have been the Dan-Balls? Perhaps he could have also noticed from the lack of posts and/or activities? EDIT: And yes, I also agree in the fact that many of the graphics here are what you label as "not good", mainly because they do focus on how much they can earn.
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Post by James on Jun 16, 2011 23:29:49 GMT
I use salted hashes on the passwords. Is that good enough? If 4 people have FTP access and can inject a password logger at all times or the rest of the code has a security flaw and a logger is easily installed thats not enough. It protects you against SQL dumps. Thats it. Still, since I use different passwords most of the time, it wouldn't really affect me. I thinks thats my last post here about security, because its kinda off topic. I see what you mean. But through my own testing (hell, I've even gotten a couple of programmers I know to white-hat hack my codes to test for XSS and SQL injection vulnerabilties), the only security flaw would be if somebody were to inject a keylogger into the registration or login script, since that's the only time where the cleartext password is ever used or stored in any way. So I guess it's a matter of how much we'd trust the admins with our security.
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 17, 2011 0:46:03 GMT
Are the admins even capable of inserting a keylogger?
Anyway, if we REALLY wanted to do that we probably would have done it here. A simple javascript to replace the login field with what we want them to be. We don't want passwords.
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Post by GloveParty on Jun 17, 2011 3:28:35 GMT
Mech. They are an art community. We are not. Fundamental differences, and it's like saying, I don't know, that a forum dedicated to bacon is similar to this one- Completely, completely different. Also, I sort of doubt the users on DeivantART really know eachb other as tightly as we do. And you can have your theories about history Mech, but I'm going by what I learned.
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Post by FoxtrotZero on Jun 17, 2011 6:09:31 GMT
If the DB system is removed, there will be no graphics, good or bad. And why would users stop making graphics simply because we don't have a currency? They won't be able to sell them... They might make them for themselves, I suppose, but I think there will be a lot less good graphics around. I suspect most people start making graphics for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. Then they improve as they make more images for other people for the sake of getting Dan-Balls. That's my best guess. I may be totally wrong, but it sounds right to me... Now, because i'm one of the wealthier people on the site, my case might be different, but i've slowly operated a shop and, though I do charge, I don't charge a whole lot. Because I don't actually do it because I care about Dan-Balls. I have more than I could ever need, yes, but even then, how many does one really need around here? I've spent most of my time as a relatively wealthy person who, as a staff member, gets alot of stuff free (I think. I can't remember, its been so long since I bought anything). So, maybe my point is invalid. 1) Now, i'm not entirely sure what OpenID Authentication is, 2) and yes, i'm someone who reuses passwords everywhere, 3) but if you want to be a member of any website, you're going to have to learn to trust the people who run the server. 1) OpenID is a system where you register at an authentication provider (many Mail providers also provide OpenID) and when you want to register with a website, it doesn't ask for a password, but for a token from your OpenID provider. That the website can't loose your password because it never gets it. Of course you can additionally still provide passwords for those who don't care about security. 2) Bad choice 3) Funny how in times where more passwords get leaked you ask me to trust a random guy who for all I know knows nothing about XSS/ SQLIA/... or even how to secure his computer. I mean if youre a better programmer then what Sony hires (although thats not hard), you might convince me... I use salted hashes on the passwords. Is that good enough? If 4 people have FTP access and can inject a password logger at all times or the rest of the code has a security flaw and a logger is easily installed thats not enough. It protects you against SQL dumps. Thats it. Still, since I use different passwords most of the time, it wouldn't really affect me. I thinks thats my last post here about security, because its kinda off topic. I think its my own perogative to determine whether or not I reuse passwords. I don't keep any horribly sensitive information on the internet. But, also, who would want to hack our website? It doesn't make sense. The only type of possible scenario is a disgruntled guy who knows what he's doing decides to try to take us down, and why should you even be concerned? Thats such a rare occurance, and you don't reuse passwords anyway. Mono, I disagree with you. I don't think people will focus on improving their style. I think they'll just plain stop making graphics. I notice no free graphics stores, except for a few mediocre ones. Practically ALL of the shops ask for dan-balls. And as... Codnchips I think?... said, I have nver seen a post only for dan-balls. Furthermore, dan-balls have been shown to have people recruiting other people- Notably waaaaay bck when when TSL revived us. If not for DBs, we wouldn't be here right now. Anyway, the dan-ball system encourages recruiting and an open graphics system. Then how would you explain a site like 'DeviantART'? I do not believe they have a currency system, and they seem to be regularly active. Graphic artists do not create their images solely for the sake of making money. If you were to ever engage in graphic art yourself, you would notice that users who do so normally do it to improved their own capabilities, and further excel their knowledge. Furthermore, I do not even recall you being present when user: 'TheShadowLord' was engaging in an entire forum revival. If this is the case, then you have no evidence as to whether Dan-Balls were the cause of such. I'm late to the party, but its because DeviantART is focused around people sharing their art - as well as advertising prints, merchandising, and commision services. Wait, did I just defeat myself there? Maybe. Whatever.
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Post by Paradox on Jun 17, 2011 11:09:21 GMT
Y'know, I'D still do graphics...
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Post by GloveParty on Jun 20, 2011 4:05:21 GMT
Yeah, but Dan-balls certainly make us feel like we hav earned it, and maybe I won't support them if you can give me a few example sof dan-ball posts. Spam board posts are ineligible. If you can't, I see no harm.
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