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Post by ganondorfchampin on Jul 30, 2011 0:16:10 GMT
Its related, as its an example of a society that doesn't require money.
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Post by Qwerty on Jul 30, 2011 0:20:17 GMT
Yeah, a horrible society full of poverty, starvation, and low-quality goods.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Jul 30, 2011 0:23:44 GMT
Its socialist and all classes get the same share, so technically there is no poverty. Goods wouldn't be low quality as there is still going to be some sort of quality demand system. You just don't understand the potential system and think I'm usually Soviet style communism.
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Post by Qwerty on Jul 30, 2011 0:32:20 GMT
That's because you haven't explained the potential system. You keep saying you'd do it differently but never how. There has to be something to inspire innovation, and there's no way that's happening if every single person gets equal resources regardless of how much work they do or how intelligent they are.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Jul 30, 2011 1:49:14 GMT
They don't get resources equally; they get resources based on their needs, so I guess its socialism, not communism.
I'm still working on this.
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Post by GloveParty on Jul 31, 2011 0:48:21 GMT
So in other words you have a farmer/supply maker who does all the work and because he makes his own food or hsi own supplies, he gets his things taken away because he's not "needy", while a beggar on the street would get those things? Also, it doesn't matter if the lack of food and supplies is so acute that the quality of life is aroudn that of dirt.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Jul 31, 2011 21:57:39 GMT
No, we rotate people, so everybody has to farm every once in a while. Thats why its sorta communist. The beggar won't be given much food if he refuses to work.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 1, 2011 3:17:11 GMT
So absolutely nobody gets to do what they want? No more dreams? Just working a series of jobs that nobody wants to wait in line for the one you do? Sounds more like slavery than anything.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 2, 2011 15:21:20 GMT
Oh noes, people can do what ever the shit they want when they aren't on certain stages in the rotation.
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Post by droctagonapus on Aug 3, 2011 5:52:01 GMT
Money has no value. Its just paper, fabric, or metal, nothing more. money is not what what the actual object is, but its use. money is something that allows for trade to avoid situations that one party does not want anything the other party has. with money, they can give them that, which can then be given to some one else. something that would be almost equivalent to money, would be the exchange of debt, someone doing a service and being owed something. then a person can pay something they owe by transferring the ownership of the owe to someone elseMy real problem is people use money to try to assign a numerical value to things. Everything and everyone has value, and you can't just assign something a number to make it appear more valuable to than something else. that's not what money is for. Every ditch digger is just as important as every doctor. depends in what way you mean important. if you mean useful, than no. One thing really screwed is that the richest of people do the least. thats not really that strange. as i said, money for exchanging for a service. someone who has money, can have people do services. thats what money is. money is not a ranking. the list of richest individuals is not a highscore list.As certain occupational pay more than others, people are driven to those occupations more than others. you would prefer all doctors become ditch diggers? As some people want money, people need to earn money in order to pay for stuff, so they need to demand money in return. Studies have shown that passion is a greater motivator than money, but why can't we live off of passion? What happened to people working because they enjoy working, because they want to make the world a better place, or just because what needs to be done needs to be done? hey, get this, its easier to organize, and you can do both. If something needs to be done, it will be done, as it needs to be done and people like living. Because of money people can't work for no pay, as people need to eat, thank yous don't buy bread, and the people who sell bread also need money. this isnt true. bartering would still occur without an official currencyMoney just creates a viscous cycle, where money is power, and the powerful gain more wealth than others. you kinda have a point there. but as plato once suggested as the 'athenian stranger', one can put a max cap on wealth.Yes, money is more convenient than trading, which I also find unnecessary if we just give stuff to each other freaking commie also that would never happen anyway.what do you think is more effective in the shor term in generating food and shelter, making computers, or making food and shelter? do you not want advances in technology?sure, the Pythagoreans proved pythag, and irrational numbers I think(although they threw that guy off the boat), but really, and entire society, 2 theorems we've heard of? , but money's convenience is also what makes it so suspectable to greed and corruption, and its easier to gather a large sum of it to one place and its easier to trade with anyone. Overall money just makes it so that the lucky people get everything, and everyone else is left in the dust. um, you think that digging a ditch is of equal difficulty as being a doctorYou can't buy happiness, but with money its a whole lot easier. After going to a certain place and having a great time, but reflecting on how it cost a ton of money to get it, I realized that money is just NOT right. There is a lot of good people who can't go because they are too poor, and poor people are stuck being poor because they can't afford a proper education, and by proper education I don't just mean college. I mean everything. plato suggested both maximum and minimum wealths Many a bastard is now a politician just because there daddy had a lot of money and they could afford law school and prey off daddies reputation. Then the cycle repeats. Money begought many an evil: consumerism, corporations that a legally bound to value money above ethics, bribery, intense greed. Its money and the whole psychology that goes with it that has messed up this world. I also think the laws should not exist, and rather a council of judges that settle disputes using ethics should replace them, using similar reasoning. my my my, that sounds almost Orwellian if looked at in a certain light. also, you think that people should vote weather murder is wrong in every instance? communist/communal societies don't work in large groups. in a large enough group there must always be at least one undetected hawk.( a hawk is one that maximizes their own benefit over the benefit of the group) for that hawk, it is more profitable for them to convince others that they need things that they do not in actuality need. while the group as a whole would do better if there were no hawks, only doves, such a group is not practically attainable.
you well just trolling everyone weren't you... XD EDIT: WAIT you WEREN'T kidding!? you both said down with agriculture and that it would only work with the internet and that progress isn't necessarily a good thing. while we don't have a rigorousness definition of progress, I'm pretty sure that the internet is considerd progress. in any case, im pretty sure that communism doesn't inspire innovation. communal-ism maybe, but not communism. and didn't you say in the first post that you would abolish laws? Sometimes you have to realize that what you would consider the perfect system might require self contradictory restrictions. e.g. voting. (see arrow's theorem) you know what you do then? You change your requirements. also I'm going to call you budda now.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 3, 2011 8:01:37 GMT
Oh, so people are only slaves at certain times. That makes it SO MUCH better. Forced labor ftw.
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Post by GloveParty on Aug 7, 2011 17:00:33 GMT
What happens in the event that the farmers on cycle get sick? You force othr people in? What happens if people refuse to work and strike against the slavery by the government?
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 10, 2011 23:39:21 GMT
Then the society collapses. But they won't go on strike if society teaches them not to go on strike.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 11, 2011 0:36:05 GMT
So you brainwash people then you force them to work at jobs they hate. You, sire, have recreated Nonja society.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 11, 2011 0:42:10 GMT
Its not brainwashing. Its culture. Well, I guess it sort of is brainwashing, but who isn't brainwashed these days?
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 11, 2011 0:43:52 GMT
The correct answer was "They don't strike because they have no reason to strike", not because they're brainwashed not to. Any society based entirely on brainwashing is not a good society.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 11, 2011 21:32:57 GMT
I never said they be brainwashed. What I meant was closer to "they don't strike because they have no reason to strike".
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 11, 2011 23:54:30 GMT
They're being forced to work at jobs they hate against their will for no real reward. That alone is enough to warrant a strike.
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Post by GloveParty on Aug 12, 2011 23:14:30 GMT
Not to mention they're barely getting any food or supplies, and low quality food and supplies at that.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 13, 2011 13:44:20 GMT
They won't strike as they don't know what striking is. They work because they know that they must work.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 14, 2011 5:22:31 GMT
As I said: Brainwashing. Besides, if they don't know what striking is, you know what they do know how to do? Rebel. Find a more fair system where people can do as they wish without being utter slaves to their dictator Ganon, and probably terminate the former government in the process. At first I didn't know how Soviet Russia managed to go so wrong on a system so theoretically right, but it's obvious now: It was run by a person like you that thinks that sort of thing is okay. Wiping the word "strike" from the dictionary and declaring it thoughtcrime is NOT the solution to the world's problems.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 14, 2011 20:24:28 GMT
Striking has already been wiped from my dictionary? You are aware that striking is illegal, maybe even a felony, for some jobs?
There is nothing wrong with restricting some freedom for the greater good. We have jails so that we may live without fear. Less freedom is more freedom.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 14, 2011 20:37:10 GMT
If you want to see what freedom looks like move to Somalia. I don't see why you guys are being so worked up by mandatory labor.
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Post by D_M-01 on Aug 14, 2011 21:35:44 GMT
People work in order to gain money, unless they are of course enslaved or "brainwashed". Or they could be self-sufficient, working to fulfill their own requirements and needs.
I feel that money is in place in society because it is difficult to determine how much one's labor is worth without such a system. Labor-intensiveness, education, and skill all come in part to how much money an individual should make. For example, there are two people working at different professions: One is a painter, the other is a medical pharmacist. Would it be safe to say that both deserve the same amount of reward for their efforts? It would seem more likely that the pharmacist receives a higher pay because they most likely achieved more in their education, are involved with a job with which they have been trained thoroughly to execute, and the outcome of another individual or individual's life is in their hands with the materials that they prescribe to them.
A society has the potential to work even without a money system. You would just have to account for what one's labor is worth when it comes to as said before: Labor-intensiveness, skill, and education.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 15, 2011 1:52:27 GMT
Ganon, we're talking about YOUR greater good. If you haven't noticed yet, nobody here has agreed with you. If nobody here has agreed with you it's highly unlikely most of the nation would agree with you, so you'd best prepare the jails to receive half the country.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 16, 2011 0:28:59 GMT
I thought I have already made my self clear that I never intended for this to work on society in its current state. Thats why I brought out the thing with the hypothetical pathogen earlier.
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Post by Qwerty on Aug 17, 2011 19:48:14 GMT
Ah, right. The only way to achieve decent society is to kill billions. Stalin tried that once. Didn't work out so well.
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 17, 2011 21:20:54 GMT
Killing people isn't the plan. Its all hypothetical. The solution would be to slowly implant the new culture over time.
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Post by GloveParty on Aug 19, 2011 21:14:36 GMT
If there's the internet that you touted, how in the world would they not know what a strike is?
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Post by ganondorfchampin on Aug 20, 2011 3:11:51 GMT
Sigh.... this is not a one generation thing. The idea of a strike will die out over time.
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