Now That You've Seen This Layout Too...
|
Post by Fringe Pioneer on Jun 12, 2011 4:16:52 GMT
It has come to my attention that this layout, despite the popular demand in the "New Skins" thread, has fallen short of some individuals' expectations. Some were polite about it, and others were rude enough to deserve official warnings for trolling. I have noticed that, in another thread started by one of those trolls, a poll with questions asked in a biased manner asked whether people preferred to go back to the old layout or "reluctantly accept this one, I guess."
Well, I'm tired of the negative, destructive criticisms that ought to be punished. Instead of punishing such individuals, I pose a slightly different question: what do you expect in a forum appearance, and what would you want in a forum appearance? Think really hard about this question, and be prepared to take at least half an hour of your time to answer this question. The responses should be very detailed - detailed enough that a professional web designer could make sense of your request and not have the urge to create a webcomic that mocks your utter incompetence and hypocrisy concerning your requests. As a matter of fact, you can try answering this question instead: if I could design an ideal layout and a skin (or many skins) for this forum, how would I go about doing so? Please note that responses such as "hurr, i just dont want this one" will be automatically considered as further trolling and will be punished as per the forum rules. Don't focus on the length of the response, but the quality of the response.
Based off the initial interest in this skin changing project, and based of my own opinion, I believe an appearance makeover is in order. If you don't like the new skins, don't just say that you want to go back to the old one and leave it at that, but either explain your dream skin for this forum, or explain in equal detail and quality why we should stick with the skin we had before the recent change.
I thank you in advance for taking a minimum of half an hour of your time to describe what an ideal appearance for the forum would look like. I will be taking the most common ideas and see if I cannot make a layout of my own to appeal to these desires...
|
|
|
Post by Artifact123 on Jun 12, 2011 6:25:33 GMT
Uhmmm... Wait lemme think.
I think i'm gonna post again later.
|
|
|
Post by Rock on Jun 12, 2011 12:54:08 GMT
My ideal forum is a lot of things, but let's start here: it isn't flat. Everything isn't just composed of 2-D boxes, rather it has gradients, shading, dimension. The colors are vivid and realistic, not clustered with little grey boxes everywhere. The text isn't small and I can read it with my contacts on without having to zoom in 200%. I expect the profiles to look like they did in the old forum, organized, and not just a paragraph of text with actual word where the buttons used to be. I expect the skin to actually be completed when it's released. I wouldn't design another skin for this forum, the old suited our needs perfectly. I could actually READ posts and usernames, and the logo looked nice. I just cannot get over the form of the new one. It looks nothing like the old one, it's just a blobbed up dan-ball logo in a brown circle. The old old looked exactly like the Dan-Ball logo, only better, it had dimension and colors were so much better. This is all I can say right now, I have to go somewhere, but I will continue this when I return.
|
|
|
Post by guest on Jun 12, 2011 12:56:40 GMT
I'd say that if anything, I'd want something with a less plain appearance. That being, some of GGoodie's other works, as can be noted on his various forums. Truthfully, the ones I would prefer are the previous skin used here, due to both the fact it has been on since the ODBF and it's significant reflection of a balance between appealing colors and depth, or the one used at ggoodietemp2.proboards.com/ , due to it's sleek and stylish 3D design and very well balanced gradients and lighting. The highlights of GGoodie's best works are reflected in those, but not in this. GGoodie did a minimalist style, which is naturally doable by most human beings due to its definition, when he could have showcased his truly incredible artistry and appreciation for this forum by pouring all his power, meaning, skill, depth, and passion into making a skin for us, as he has so well done in the past. But, status quo being what it is, I'm not getting the vibe I thought I would get. GGoodie is a talented artist, and a devoted member, and his work should reflect that. At a point, it did. Now, I'm very much hoping this is no indication of GGoodie's feelings for this forum. Long story short, I'd desire either the previous layout back, or something like ggoodietemp2.proboards.com/ has, both of which are, imo, the true pinnacles of GGoodie's works.
|
|
|
Post by james on Jun 12, 2011 15:15:57 GMT
|
|
|
Post by James on Jun 12, 2011 16:14:27 GMT
point being:
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 12, 2011 16:18:00 GMT
I'd say that if anything, I'd want something with a less plain appearance. That being, some of GGoodie's other works, as can be noted on his various forums. Truthfully, the ones I would prefer are the previous skin used here, due to both the fact it has been on since the ODBF and it's significant reflection of a balance between appealing colors and depth, or the one used at ggoodietemp2.proboards.com/ , due to it's sleek and stylish 3D design and very well balanced gradients and lighting. The highlights of GGoodie's best works are reflected in those, but not in this. GGoodie did a minimalist style, which is naturally doable by most human beings due to its definition, when he could have showcased his truly incredible artistry and appreciation for this forum by pouring all his power, meaning, skill, depth, and passion into making a skin for us, as he has so well done in the past. But, status quo being what it is, I'm not getting the vibe I thought I would get. GGoodie is a talented artist, and a devoted member, and his work should reflect that. At a point, it did. Now, I'm very much hoping this is no indication of GGoodie's feelings for this forum. Long story short, I'd desire either the previous layout back, or something like ggoodietemp2.proboards.com/ has, both of which are, imo, the true pinnacles of GGoodie's works. I'm trying to swim through the sea of unnecessary compliments to the real comment underneath but it's really hard. Also, this was a post by KK7.
|
|
|
Post by sparkpowder on Jun 12, 2011 16:18:24 GMT
Here's my idea:
Polish the skins, make a ''Metallic'' theme, with mostly using gold, silver, and bronze.
And that's about it. I have nothing else bad to say about the skin.
|
|
|
Post by Fringe Pioneer on Jun 12, 2011 18:23:56 GMT
Wow, I don't even have to check the IP to recognize that style and know that GGoodie's right. Since it ignored what my post asked and continued to negatively complain without actually describing an ideal design, I will punish, as promised. Also, since he never accepted the challenge, that's 5% this time, 10% next time, 20% after that, 40% after that, and so on.
Rock, on the other hand, actually followed instructions and gives me an idea of what I must do. I thank you, Rock, and will exalt you. I will also wait for more, as you said you would.
Chronologik's picture says a thousand words, but then he actually is working on (more than just) an alternative layout. Since, not only was his criticism to a minimum, but he's actually doing something himself to fix it, but since he doesn't have an account to which I could give karma, I'll just give him a thank you.
Thank you to everyone else, too, although your results aren't really quite as detailed as I was hoping. Take more time to think, if you need to...
|
|
|
Post by james on Jun 12, 2011 18:51:25 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
There are a few really basic ways to increase readability without changing the design.
Give a fixed width. Thinner displays make text more readable because your eyes have to "scroll" through less of a distance horizontally, especially at the end of each line. The standard width for a website is 960px. Explaining the reason behind the 960 grid would take too long, just google it if you're interested.
Give elements more padding. Having 15px of padding is generally considered the minimum amount that you need. 20px is a pretty comfortable amount of padding though.
This next suggestion will change the look of the site, but I would personally recommend it:
Get rid of the double borders. Having a double border gives the illusion of doubling the number of elements, by making it look like you have a box inside another box. Especially given the small amount of space between the two borders, this makes the entire layout look clustered. Given a lack of alignment across elements from the top of the page to the bottom, this makes the layout look chaotic and makes the text harder to read.
By making the first two changes, even though I don't like the layout personally, it would at least make the layout managable.
|
|
|
Post by ~Memzak~ on Jun 12, 2011 19:30:04 GMT
I agree a lot with Rock's Idea.
I like the idea of a more 3D look with more popping out features and more gradients. I just fear that it might be too hard with having Multiple gradients each for a different skin. (and it would take a lot of time)
...but if someone were to put in the time that would be awesome indeed.
|
|
|
Post by Rock on Jun 12, 2011 20:19:31 GMT
Okay, I have finished my homework and will now finish my argument.
I don't have that much left, but I couldn't finish because I had to leave and my dad was getting really mad. But basically, I have 4 main points against this new skin:
-It has no dimension, depth, or life. Just boxes composing of 4-5 flat colors. -The text is so small to the point where it's illegible when I have my contacts on. -The logo links you to another site AND looks nothing like the Dan-Ball logo. -It's not even done yet.
I know GGoodie is far better than this skin and is beyond more than capable of deigning one that fits are needs, and he has. It was the v2 skin. The v2 skin was more than just 4 colors, it had gradients, style, originality, depth, vividness, and had a default homepage that won't make visitors' eyeballs melt out of their heads. All I'm saying is that my ideal forum layout/skin is the v2 skin. And I am now realizing that the custom stars don't even work on this new skin, which greatly irritates me, because stars also gave life to the forum.I have also now for the first time tried swapping pages, and it's pretty annoying to have to actually TYPE the page number, rather than mousing over the number and being given the list of pages, and then physically click the "Go" button rater than just pressing enter.
This is all I have to say. I've made my points and they will stand strong until the return of the v2 skin or some form of compromise is made.
|
|
|
Post by Robert on Jun 12, 2011 20:21:13 GMT
I'm going to do my best to cover the reasons for my dislike of the new skin.
When I logged in a month later (I do so on a month to month basis, mostly to see what members think about the latest changes and updates with Dust), I noticed the change instantly. And my first gut reaction, without knowing ANYTHING (from the length of time to create it, or even that you can change the colors) was "ouch, this hurts my eyes and looks really bad". I was not expecting any skin change. I was fully surprised. While browsing the forum, I thought, maybe like most sudden changes, I'll get used to it by the time I finish reading the updated threads. Well, I still didn't find it all that attractive.
To me, a good theme/skin requires a few goals. One, is to not be distracting and let you focus on the content. Two, is to not hurt your eyes, and three is to load up quickly on as many platforms as possible. The original skin, despite having a few very large graphics (the logo and stuff, for example), just didn't seem to distract myself. Yes, it was in your face, but it didn't seem out of place. It was easy to ignore, as the content was presentable in a way that got you into the content and ignoring those graphics. In the new skin, the color choice for the default hurts the eyes and causes yourself to be distracted instantly.
Loading up quickly may just be my browser and Internet connection, however the response I got when I mentioned this was "no it doesn't, because mine is fast". Well, that's nice. But not everyone's is fast like yours. Mine just happens to be of slightly lower speed than it should be. Nothing much I can do about that, plus most websites load up in decent speeds. This one, even with the shout/chat box disabled with each page load, still takes several seconds. I happen to use Mozilla Firefox, not that it matter. I heard Google Chrome is one of the more recent browsers to use, and I've used it on occasion, but I shouldn't have to switch Internet browsers in order to view the forum.
To me, what makes this skin worse than the original is the color choice, and the layout. The colors are just badly chosen. Yes, they match the danball website closer, however the danball website isn't a forum full of small text. It's a site with games that you focus on. The content is different. Also, the layout. I really do believe that the layout is just a bunch of tables. Yes, the ProBoards forums template IS pretty much a table, however just look at the different types of forums out there. I don't wish to advertise so I'll just state that there ARE a lot of forums that use tons of custom header and footer images, background images, and code it in a way that makes it look unique, yet not distracting.
The new skin seems to remind me of the days when I was 12-14 and I had my website made of tables. Once a month, with each holiday or event, I would change the colors, maybe add a few backgrounds, but the template was still an obvious table style. It was the cool thing to do in 1998 and up to 2004 or so when tables were being replaced with divs and other more advanced coding. But this skin reminded me of that. Simple graphics put in a table. The borders being thick and decorative with colors. Sometimes the colors didn't work out but I didn't care because I was 13 and 14 and was proud that I could do WHAT I could do with the colors and tables.
Finally, the color choice argument. To me, defending the 'color choice is bad' argument with 'you can change it' sort of tells me that you acknowledge that the color choice isn't the greatest and are willing to add optional ones, which isn't a bad idea either. However, when many people say "ouch it hurts my eyes" and you say "I added other color choices so shut up" seems to be the attitude I'm getting. And in reality, it just changes the colors to make them look more pretty. It's still the same, 1999-2004 looking table template design. Not saying it's bad, but that was then. It's 2011. Time to get into the modern design.
And let me ask, why did it take a few weeks to code the template? What was there to code that took that long? With full respect of course.
This is simply my opinion on the matter, and hopefully it works well enough for you.
|
|
|
Post by James on Jun 12, 2011 20:28:38 GMT
I'm going to do my best to cover the reasons for my dislike of the new skin. When I logged in a month later (I do so on a month to month basis, mostly to see what members think about the latest changes and updates with Dust), I noticed the change instantly. And my first gut reaction, without knowing ANYTHING (from the length of time to create it, or even that you can change the colors) was "ouch, this hurts my eyes and looks really bad". I was not expecting any skin change. I was fully surprised. While browsing the forum, I thought, maybe like most sudden changes, I'll get used to it by the time I finish reading the updated threads. Well, I still didn't find it all that attractive. To me, a good theme/skin requires a few goals. One, is to not be distracting and let you focus on the content. Two, is to not hurt your eyes, and three is to load up quickly on as many platforms as possible. The original skin, despite having a few very large graphics (the logo and stuff, for example), just didn't seem to distract myself. Yes, it was in your face, but it didn't seem out of place. It was easy to ignore, as the content was presentable in a way that got you into the content and ignoring those graphics. In the new skin, the color choice for the default hurts the eyes and causes yourself to be distracted instantly. Loading up quickly may just be my browser and Internet connection, however the response I got when I mentioned this was "no it doesn't, because mine is fast". Well, that's nice. But not everyone's is fast like yours. Mine just happens to be of slightly lower speed than it should be. Nothing much I can do about that, plus most websites load up in decent speeds. This one, even with the shout/chat box disabled with each page load, still takes several seconds. I happen to use Mozilla Firefox, not that it matter. I heard Google Chrome is one of the more recent browsers to use, and I've used it on occasion, but I shouldn't have to switch Internet browsers in order to view the forum. To me, what makes this skin worse than the original is the color choice, and the layout. The colors are just badly chosen. Yes, they match the danball website closer, however the danball website isn't a forum full of small text. It's a site with games that you focus on. The content is different. Also, the layout. I really do believe that the layout is just a bunch of tables. Yes, the ProBoards forums template IS pretty much a table, however just look at the different types of forums out there. I don't wish to advertise so I'll just state that there ARE a lot of forums that use tons of custom header and footer images, background images, and code it in a way that makes it look unique, yet not distracting. The new skin seems to remind me of the days when I was 12-14 and I had my website made of tables. Once a month, with each holiday or event, I would change the colors, maybe add a few backgrounds, but the template was still an obvious table style. It was the cool thing to do in 1998 and up to 2004 or so when tables were being replaced with divs and other more advanced coding. But this skin reminded me of that. Simple graphics put in a table. The borders being thick and decorative with colors. Sometimes the colors didn't work out but I didn't care because I was 13 and 14 and was proud that I could do WHAT I could do with the colors and tables. Finally, the color choice argument. To me, defending the 'color choice is bad' argument with 'you can change it' sort of tells me that you acknowledge that the color choice isn't the greatest and are willing to add optional ones, which isn't a bad idea either. However, when many people say "ouch it hurts my eyes" and you say "I added other color choices so shut up" seems to be the attitude I'm getting. And in reality, it just changes the colors to make them look more pretty. It's still the same, 1999-2004 looking table template design. Not saying it's bad, but that was then. It's 2011. Time to get into the modern design. And let me ask, why did it take a few weeks to code the template? What was there to code that took that long? With full respect of course. This is simply my opinion on the matter, and hopefully it works well enough for you. You have no idea how much I love you right now. You actually know how web design works, and you're not just hating on it because it's different, but because the design is dated and desperately needs to be changed. Because yeah, the old layout wasn't that great, but at least it worked. No amount of getting used to this layout will change the fact that it uses outdated techniques, is a pain regarding readability, and that changing the colours doesn't actually fix the layout.
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Jun 12, 2011 20:31:34 GMT
For the record, we did change the default. It's classic now rather than dan-ball. Much more pleasing on the eyes. The rest stands, though.
|
|
|
Post by Robert on Jun 12, 2011 21:07:47 GMT
I'm going to do my best to cover the reasons for my dislike of the new skin. This is simply my opinion on the matter, and hopefully it works well enough for you. You have no idea how much I love you right now. You actually know how web design works, and you're not just hating on it because it's different, but because the design is dated and desperately needs to be changed. Because yeah, the old layout wasn't that great, but at least it worked. No amount of getting used to this layout will change the fact that it uses outdated techniques, is a pain regarding readability, and that changing the colours doesn't actually fix the layout. I love it when forums/websites change their look. It's refreshing and shows they are paying attention to current trends. However, there is a difference between moving FORWARD and moving BACKWARDS, which I fear is what we are doing in this case. And of course I don't hate it, however I don't think it's the best choice.
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 12, 2011 22:01:28 GMT
Finally, the color choice argument. To me, defending the 'color choice is bad' argument with 'you can change it' sort of tells me that you acknowledge that the color choice isn't the greatest and are willing to add optional ones, which isn't a bad idea either. That's exactly what I'm saying -_- The dan-ball website has terrible colors, yes, and I wasn't even going to make a dan-ball themed version but a bunch of people kept saying we should have one, so I made it. I also don't really understand what your objection is to the layout is. You constantly say that the borders make it look like tables, but I don't really see what the problem is with that. Honestly, I think they fit with the style of the design. Simple graphics put in a table. The borders being thick and decorative with colors. Sometimes the colors didn't work out but I didn't care because I was 13 and 14 and was proud that I could do WHAT I could do with the colors and tables. Where is that reflected in this design? As for James and his comment about 15px padding: Show me a few forums that are like that.
|
|
|
Post by Robert on Jun 12, 2011 22:10:21 GMT
Finally, the color choice argument. To me, defending the 'color choice is bad' argument with 'you can change it' sort of tells me that you acknowledge that the color choice isn't the greatest and are willing to add optional ones, which isn't a bad idea either. That's exactly what I'm saying -_- The dan-ball website has terrible colors, yes, and I wasn't even going to make a dan-ball themed version but a bunch of people kept saying we should have one, so I made it. I also don't really understand what your objection is to the layout is. You constantly say that the borders make it look like tables, but I don't really see what the problem is with that. Honestly, I think they fit with the style of the design. But you didn't exactly follow through with the color choices. Where's the background? Why such a wide forum? The fact that the only difference with the skin options is the colors, thus leaving our the possibility and potential to fix the template as well.
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 12, 2011 22:15:16 GMT
1. Yes, I did. 2. There isn't a background, there was never meant to be one. 3. It's a liquid layout, it adjusts to your screen. 4. That was the point.
|
|
|
Post by Robert on Jun 12, 2011 22:58:32 GMT
1. Yes, I did. 2. There isn't a background, there was never meant to be one. 3. It's a liquid layout, it adjusts to your screen. 4. That was the point. 1. Well it don't look right on my screen. 2. Yet the website, which you said you are trying to portray... does. 3. Which isn't a good idea in my opinion. 4. Not a good idea either.
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 12, 2011 23:41:11 GMT
Dan-Ball has no background image, it's a plain grey background. (the same grey I used in the dan-ball themed skin) 3 & 4 are your own opinions that you don't actually have any support for.
|
|
|
Post by Robert on Jun 13, 2011 0:02:40 GMT
Dan-Ball has no background image, it's a plain grey background. (the same grey I used in the dan-ball themed skin) 3 & 4 are your own opinions that you don't actually have any support for. Sorry, not the background background, the table/content background image.
|
|
|
Post by james on Jun 13, 2011 0:42:31 GMT
but I don't really see what the problem is with that. Honestly, I think they fit with the style of the design. Now I'm just plain concerned.
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 13, 2011 1:08:19 GMT
That was a little rude...
|
|
|
Post by james on Jun 13, 2011 1:15:11 GMT
That was a little rude... You used to rage at me just for using tables in the code, even if the layout didn't look tabular. You used to hate tables. Now you're ok with a 2004-esque table based design. I don't know man. Something went wrong. Get your ass on dribbble, lurk more off of depthcore, get an encide invite, anything. It's like you've forgotten how to design.
|
|
|
Post by Rock on Jun 13, 2011 1:45:49 GMT
Enough of this, it's starting to get ugly.
Anyway, you obviously have a lot of people who truly like the old skin better for valid reasons. What now?
|
|
|
Post by Fringe Pioneer on Jun 13, 2011 2:23:32 GMT
I really think we should have a different skin. Maybe not this current one, especially since it has its flaws and is too unpopular, but something different from what we had nevertheless. There are some important requirements for whatever gets designed, some of these thanks to comments I have read from users who posted on this thread: - The code should be relatively clean and organized so that those who must edit the H/F don't have a high chance of screwing everything over on accident.
- The code should be easy to implement.
- The code should have a minimum of conflicts with other Proboards codes, although I realize there will be times when the Proboards codes are too klutzy.
- All aspects of the mini profile that we have had should be kept, such as display of Dan-Balls, karma, and so forth.
- Important buttons and functions should not be difficult to find. This was apparently a problem with the old skin for new members.
- There should be some reminder that we have our roots in Dan-Ball and Ha55ii.
- The design should not interfere with the ability to read the forum.
- The design should rely only on a minimum of images that must be loaded.
These are some perks that would be nice to have: - The design should rely on a minimum of code.
- Registered users should be able to choose from a selection of different color schemes.
- Registered users should be able to choose from a selection of different layouts.
- The design should not turn users into trolls or make existing trolls even worse.
|
|
|
Post by endy123 on Jun 13, 2011 3:23:19 GMT
mainly I'm just seeing serious color bleed. I've got almost an inch of off Grey border area causing everything else to look brighter. the other thing is that the logo is covering up parts of the thread title. It's a bit of a quality issue and something a personal issue since I typically have multiple topics open at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by GGoodie on Jun 13, 2011 3:34:50 GMT
You can change your color scheme in your modify profile to another if you would like. Personally, I (and many others) think that that one, which followed the Dan-Ball website's color scheme, is the worst.
As for the logo covering up the thread titles, that should be fixed now.
|
|
|
Post by endy123 on Jun 13, 2011 4:21:35 GMT
I did. Just part of the issue though. shouldn't be almost required to change it. That just suggests a design needing some improvement to make it better liked. the border is the same color as the border for DB, but DB also has an image bkground instead of that solid color for the body section. if we still want to keep the same border color, we could still perhaps look at creating a similar image for use as the background for the body section instead. As for the logo covering up the thread titles, that should be fixed now. ty
|
|
|