Feminism

[xShadowLordx]

A couple of us were having a heated debate about this on chat, and it ended up getting nowhere. So I figured it would be much more smooth and clear if it were carried over to the forum. So feel free to discuss here any thoughts or opinions you have on feminism.

But of course, like all good debates, we must have a couple rules.:

1. Do not deny cold, hard facts.
2. Be logical at all times.
3. Do not flame anyone anywhere ever for any reason. Ever.
4. Do not distort another person's argument.

Any posts that break any of these rules shall be deemed worthless.

[monokr0me]

Now I'd like you to please tell me what legal rights men have over women.

[xShadowLordx]

I already answered that: None.

[Saza]

now that that is out the way this is why i don't like feminists because a fair amount of them are like this

regardless there's nothing wrong with the idea. it's just execution / select few who dirty the overall.

[Fringe Pioneer]

There are several problems:

• You have to indicate that something is a "cold, hard fact" with some kind of evidence, preferably outside evidence, else it won't be so "cold" and "hard."
  
• Too many people have not taken PHIL 3505 or the equivalent thereof and are unlikely to know anything about first order predicate logic.
  
• It's difficult to avoid Straw Men arguments once something is made ambiguous or worded improperly.

I have a feeling that most posts will be deemed worthless with respect to your four rules...

[monokr0me]

Now I'd like to point out what legal rights women have over men:

• Reproduction rights (Girl wants baby man doesn't, she has it anyway and man has to pay for it for 18 years. Man wants baby, girl doesn't, girl aborts.)
  
• Women do not partake in the Draft
  
• Women are favored for keeping children in divorces
  
• Women's Health Centers
  

[Saza]

May 12, 2012 3:50:30 GMT monokr0me said:

Now I'd like to point out what legal rights women have over men:

• Women's Health Centers
  

well actually there are men's health centers

[Artifact123]

I'm gonna put a quite here which basically voices my opinion:

''You can't have equality between sexes when you focus on the problems of one of them''

Basically, feminists want men and women to be equal by focusing on the problems of one of them. Both sexes can't really be equal. We should all have(Actually, we pretty much do) the right to do the same things but don't complain if men are favored for heavier physical jobs because men were made stronger. We are better at lifting stuff and feminists have got no right whatsoever to not let us be naturally muscled. Women are simply allowed to do it, which is as fair as it can get. That they might not perform as well as men is not unfair. Blame nature, not other people.

[Clockwork]

As I said in chat, males accomplish more, so they get paid more. Doesn't matter if you think it is unfair, that's life. No one in their right mind will pay a woman the same as a man when they only do half as good.

Now if a woman accomplishes a lot I see her getting paid more. I think people earn their pay. The majority of women don't get paid as much as men. That isn't sexism, it is cause-and-effect.

As for your quote that porn defeats feminism. Not ALL pornography objectifies women. Only some of it. You can't say the majority because you don't have statistical proof, so don't bring non-quantifiable evidence to this debate. The correct thing to say is, "Some porn defeats feminism". Yeah, it doesn't have much ring to it now does it?

As for rights, I'd go as far to say that women have more rights than men. You laugh at me? Laugh at the man who is fighting custody of his children in divorce court. Or a woman who made off with half of a man's money when she didn't actually earn any of it. She wants a baby and he doesn't? They have a baby. She doesn't want one and he does? They don't have a baby. It takes two to make a child. Also, women aren't put in the draft. There is a good reason for this, they aren't as naturally gifted as men in something like the military. So why draft them, that should be a last resort.

Seriously, we should be trying to give more rights to men, not women. Women have more rights than men and the fact that they get paid less isn't because people are sexist. It's just because they suck more at what they do. Get a better profession.

[nmagain]

I'm not going to write out a long post so I'll just say one thing, equal rights aren't going to fully work when some religions say that men get double the inheritance of women when a parent dies.

[Clockwork]

I thought that only happened in countries in the middle east and some in Asia.

Like Bangladesh...

[nmagain]

The US isn't the center of the world, you know.

[Clockwork]

Considering the majority of users on this forum come from some developed countries...
And I never said it was the center of the world. Stop distorting my words.

[nmagain]

yup, here we go again, calling every other country undeveloped.
god bless america

[Clockwork]

I never said any of that.

America, Western Europe, Japan, and Australia/NewZealand are all developed regions. The majority of users come from these areas. Stop distorting my words!

[ganondorfchampin]

My friend's mother is the head of UN Women in South America or Brazil or something. She gave the keynote speech at the largest MUN conference in Brazil this year and spoke a little on her role. In my opinion seeking woman's rights is important in the developing world, but not the developed world. Sexism certainly exists and its problem, but it goes both ways. I'm going to agree with Elton that in developed countries there is more of a problem with men being discriminated against, though its simply feminism has gone too far after it was needed, and there hasn't been enough masculinism to balance it out. If you want sexually equality you can't set double standards and you need set things up both ways. Also, some of the extra rights of women are relics of thinking of women as weak and inferior. If women want equal rights they need equal responsibility.

[xShadowLordx]

May 12, 2012 3:47:09 GMT Fringe Pioneer said:

There are several problems:

• You have to indicate that something is a "cold, hard fact" with some kind of evidence, preferably outside evidence, else it won't be so "cold" and "hard."
  
• Too many people have not taken PHIL 3505 or the equivalent thereof and are unlikely to know anything about first order predicate logic.
  
• It's difficult to avoid Straw Men arguments once something is made ambiguous or worded improperly.

I have a feeling that most posts will be deemed worthless with respect to your four rules...

Alas, I know that's true...

May 12, 2012 3:50:30 GMT monokr0me said:

Now I'd like to point out what legal rights women have over men:

• Reproduction rights (Girl wants baby man doesn't, she has it anyway and man has to pay for it for 18 years. Man wants baby, girl doesn't, girl aborts.)
  
• Women do not partake in the Draft
  
• Women are favored for keeping children in divorces
  
• Women's Health Centers
  

Ok, those rights obviously slipped my mind. I'm not challenging them.

May 12, 2012 13:00:19 GMT Clockwork said:

As I said in chat, males accomplish more, so they get paid more. Doesn't matter if you think it is unfair, that's life. No one in their right mind will pay a woman the same as a man when they only do half as good.

...

Seriously, we should be trying to give more rights to men, not women. Women have more rights than men and the fact that they get paid less isn't because people are sexist. It's just because they suck more at what they do. Get a better profession.

Well obviously if a women works the same exact job as a man and gets paid less, something's out of whack. Women can do a lot of jobs equally as good as men can. Some even better.

May 13, 2012 12:36:43 GMT nmagain said:

I'm not going to write out a long post so I'll just say one thing, equal rights aren't going to fully work when some religions say that men get double the inheritance of women when a parent dies.

I'll have you know that there are very good, historically sensible reasons for that rule. But we are not going to turn this into a religious debate.

[Clockwork]

I meant when the women perform worse. Yeah, if they're being paid less but doing a better job, it is unfair.

Most of the time, however (In a developed country), women -and men- are paid by their performance. You get raises if you do a good job. A promotion

[ganondorfchampin]

May 14, 2012 22:03:14 GMT Clockwork said:

I meant when the women perform worse. Yeah, if they're being paid less but doing a better job, it is unfair.

Most of the time, however (In a developed country), women -and men- are paid by their performance. You get raises if you do a good job. A promotion

The problem is overt discrimination, its subconscious stuff, women are subconsciously thought of as being poorer workers. No amount of legislation is going to change that, only time can. Performance isn't the only factor that is used in promotions. Education, and time spent with the company are also taken into account, as well as if the higher ups think a person's opinions are inline with their own. Also, promotions only apply to a certain jobs.

[Clockwork]

I'm not discriminating. I'm making an observation. Some women do get paid a lot. Most do not. Same with men, it's just more men get paid more than most women because they perform better.

These are facts, yo.

[ganondorfchampin]

May 15, 2012 19:15:41 GMT Clockwork said:

I'm not discriminating. I'm making an observation. Some women do get paid a lot. Most do not. Same with men, it's just more men get paid more than most women because they perform better.

These are facts, yo.

I didn't say you were discriminating. I was referring to certain people in authority.

[Clockwork]

Besides, if anyone here has read the bible. It bluntly implies and even says that women are below men.

[ganondorfchampin]

May 19, 2012 22:09:48 GMT Clockwork said:

Besides, if anyone here has read the bible. It bluntly implies and even says that women are below men.

Because we all live in a Abrahamic Theocracy and if any works on a Sunday they get stoned....