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Post by Qwerty on Jun 26, 2011 1:44:13 GMT
That's because there isn't. No scientific proof, no philosophical proof, no proof at all.
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Post by izacque on Jun 26, 2011 3:05:11 GMT
Don't say something stupid like "typical atheists, they never find any evidence" either. I know you're going to anyway. Yes. I actually am that hypocritical, you know. I'm izacque. King of "I read this, but I'm too lazy to even google it, so just trust me." And I'm certainly going to stereotype atheists because one of them doesn't remember specific references from a book he doesn't even believe in. Thank you for praising my intelligence, sir. Okay, teh wiki source was 50% bullshit, 20% misinterpretation, 20% "... Yeah, that's actually the point of christianity..." and 10% "Lemme look up that shit seeing as the other 90% is trash". These percentages are estimates. If you wish, I can address each verse specifically. Also, where are the biblical contradictions?
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 26, 2011 3:10:04 GMT
See the problem is, you could still lose even if you refuse to play I can't lose what I don't play xP The way I see it, we have an huge chance of losing no matter what we choose. Any god that would put us through this is not righteous enough to be worshiped, even if they do exist.
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Post by izacque on Jun 26, 2011 3:27:59 GMT
The way I see it, we have an huge chance of losing no matter what we choose. Any god that would put us through this is not righteous enough to be worshiped, even if they do exist. Well, if you really believe a God exists, the question isn't about whether or not he deserves your worship. The thing is, it's hard to believe for most people.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 26, 2011 3:44:07 GMT
Why isn't it?
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 26, 2011 3:48:13 GMT
So, what's the point of worshipping a god that will send you to damnation for eternity if you don't? Reminds me of Stalin. If you don't praise Stalin, you get sent to Siberia. What makes God so much better? What makes him exempt from the moral rules the rest of us have to follow?
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 26, 2011 21:16:55 GMT
So, what's the point of worshipping a god that will send you to damnation for eternity if you don't? Reminds me of Stalin. If you don't praise Stalin, you get sent to Siberia. What makes God so much better? What makes him exempt from the moral rules the rest of us have to follow? Pffft. That argument is pathetic and totally overused. It only shows a failure on your part to understand the nature of God. To use the Stalin example, Stalin should have been held accountable because he was a human like the rest of us and didn't do anything to deserve special treatment. God, on the other hand, is not like humans. He's automatically entitled to anything he wants. To say otherwise is to degrade God and place limitations on him, which defeats the idea of him being God in the first place.
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 26, 2011 22:06:15 GMT
The argument may be overused, but it's still valid. God should be held as accountable as any human. He doesn't get a do-whatever-he-wants pass just cause he's all-powerful. If he isn't, then again, he isn't worth worshipping.
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 26, 2011 22:28:30 GMT
The argument may be overused, but it's still valid. God should be held as accountable as any human. He doesn't get a do-whatever-he-wants pass just cause he's all-powerful. If he isn't, then again, he isn't worth worshipping. Even if he should be held accountable, why don't you give me some examples where he has ever broken his own rules?
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 27, 2011 3:09:57 GMT
Very well, although you'll probably dismiss this too for some strange reason. Let's start with the commandments (bsed off the Exodus version, not the Deuteronomy version. When contradictions arise, ignore one). Of course, keep in mind that I'm talking about moral rules, not necessarily his moral rules, although we'll get to that. One: I am God that did such-and-such. Okay, that's a statement. Nothing wrong there. Two: Do not have any other gods before me. Okay, so pray only to God. He can't exactly contradict that one as he IS God. Three: 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Alrighty, no praying to inanimate objects. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, Wait, he punishes the CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN of people that worship other gods? Whatever kind of morality he's using for this it has nothing to do with me. 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. See above. Why does the thousandth generation of those that love him automatically become better than the fourth generation of those that do not? Four: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. Presumably until Jesus came along, but this one is irrelevant as he is God himself. Five: 8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. It doesn't seem most people follow this, but doesn't relate to God. 9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work. God did follow this one during the creation of Earth, according to the bible. 10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. Aww, my slaves can't do work? Or the alien resident (who, by the way, presumably is NOT the same religion)? 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it. Yeah, see Genesis, etc. Six: Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Okay, makes sense. All good there. Seven: You shall not kill/murder. Oh boy is this a fun one. From Deuteronomy 20 (see Deut. 20:16-17) to the flooding of the red sea and Noah's flood (yaaay floods), God seems to only ever obey this law during the new testament. More examples here, although you'll probably dismiss that as biased as well. Eight to ten: See six. Fine morals there. Now to cases of general immorality (not contradicting God's law, just common sense: GENESIS 34:13 (Israelites can do whatever they gosh-darn please.) GENESIS 6 & 7 (I hope he at least let the unicorns on first.) GENESIS 19:6 (rape is fine if it's not angel rape!) GENESIS 19:26 (she disobeyed Stal- I mean, God.) GENESIS 38: 8-10 (How DARE he spill his seed! That stuff costs money.) EXODUS 2:12 (Eye for an eye: Beating = death and burial in a field. Wait... no, it doesn't.) EXODUS 7:20-21 (EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Egypt deserved that? Come on, God, at least let the innocent drink.) Other plagues: See above. EXODUS 21:20-21 (Beating slaves is AOK if they survive.) EXODUS 32:27 (Death is too good for them. So is suicide. Just kill each other. See commandment seven.) LEVITICUS 26:22 (It's not cause you're taking their habitat. It's cause God sent them.) LEVITICUS 26:27-29 (Don't be hostile or it's cannibalism time!) NUMBERS 15:32-26 (Sabbath > working to live.) NUMBERS 16:27-33 (What about the wives and children?) NUMBERS 21:35 (I'm gonna stop posting genocides in this list, but feel free to ask for more examples) NUMBERS 31:9 (woo, spoils of war. Cause people are things.) NUMBERS 31:17-18 (save for yourselves? Hm, sounds ominous. To be fair, it's not angel rape so it's okay.) NUMBERS 31:31-40 (PETA would like a stern word with you, God.) DEUTERONOMY 21:10-13 (See a pretty lady in battle? She's your wife. Off with her hair and her clothes and on with her wedding ring.) DEUTERONOMY 28:53 (I thought it was only atheists that ate babies.) JOSHUA (more genocide, too many to list here.) JOSHUA 11:8-15 (He was paying attention back in Deuteronomy 20:16.) JUDGES 1:6 (He's running for his life, ergo torture him. Torture is okay too, in the right name.) JUDGES 9:53-54 (Those women. We already know from the bible they're just the property of their husbands, and this one has the audacity to try to kill someone.) JUDGES 21:10-12 (what with all this sparing virgins, you'd think they have a virgin-o-meter. 1 SAMUEL 5:6-9 (Testicular cancer. Not bad luck, just an angry God.) 1 SAMUEL 14:31 (This one relates to priorities. Yay, dead people! No, you're eating the food wrong.) 2 SAMUEL 4:7-8 (David seems like a pretty sensible guy. More sensible than God, anyway.) 2 SAMUEL 6:6-7 (How dare you not let the Ark of the Covenant fall! /smite Uzzah!) 2 SAMUEL 6:22-23 (Hey, he can expose himself to slave girls if he wants! You get no children.) 2 Samuel 21:8 (Except those five.) 2 SAMUEL 11:14-27 (You know what I said about David being sensible? Forget it.) 2 SAMUEL 13:1-15 (Woo, incest rape! To be fair, not God-approved.) 1 KINGS 13-15-24 (Poor guy, tricked by a false prophet.) 2 KINGS 10:14 (42 is an nice number. Compared to 100,000 it seems pretty small.) EZRA 6:12-13 (Creative punishments ftw, but what about the homeless?) Ooh, there ARE some New Testament ones! MATTHEW 5:17 (Fine until you look at last section.) MATTHEW 8:21 (Follow Jesus. The vultures need some food anyway.) MARK 7:10 (I am so screwed once my parents find this out.) ROMANS 1:26-27 (Debatable, especially to some people. Not including you, obviously.) HEBREWS 12:20 (And how would they know better? PEEETAAA!) REVELATION (Just Revelation. Seriously now.)
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Post by mdog95 on Jun 27, 2011 3:57:16 GMT
I might have already posted this, but I'm too lazy to check if I did. I believe that SOMETHING had to put all of the reactants in place for the universe to be created. Matter just does not appear out of nothing. I follow science from there. The thing I laugh at is people trying to prove God exists in our daily lives. For example, When I go to a friend's house for dinner or something, sometimes I run into religious parents. Of course they prayer at dinner. Getting to the point, they always say "Thank you for placing this food on our table with my family and friends, and please let this food nourish our bodies..." First of all, I'm pretty sure they put hard work into cooking the food themselves, and the food already has its nutrients in it, so there is no need to pray to this "God" and beg him to put nutrients in the food. My last point, the Medieval times are solid proof that religious people are nothing more than complete know-nothings. Absolutely nothing got accomplished in that era accept a few neat looking churches being built.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 27, 2011 4:08:38 GMT
TSL has shown previously in these debates that arguments about morality don't get anywhere with him, so instead I shall talk about something else :3
TSL, before I begin, tell me which of the following characteristics you believe are possesed by your God: 1. Omniscient/All-knowing .....a. Knows the present and past (but not the future) .....b. Knows the present, past, and future 2. Omnipresent (As often depicted of the Holy Spirit) 3. Omnipotent/Almighty 4. Omnibenevolent/All-loving 5. Timeless/Eternal .....a. Is within Time (Although having created time, still experiences time as we do) .....b. Is outside of Time (Is outside of time itself and therefor experiences past, present and future as one) 6. Immortal/Deathless (Not counting his mortal incarnation of Jesus)
I don't know what religion/denomination specifically you are, so I figured it would be best to just ask you before-hand. I will ignore that a few of these lack/have more scriptural evidence than others. (Specifically how 1&3 are pretty much irrefutable while 5a is illogical)
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 27, 2011 4:15:22 GMT
So, out of that whole post, there seem to be only 3 commandments you have problems with: 5: You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, Wait, he punishes the CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN of people that worship other gods? Whatever kind of morality he's using for this it has nothing to do with me. 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. See above. Why does the thousandth generation of those that love him automatically become better than the fourth generation of those that do not? 7: You shall not kill/murder. Oh boy is this a fun one. From Deuteronomy 20 (see Deut. 20:16-17) to the flooding of the red sea and Noah's flood (yaaay floods), God seems to only ever obey this law during the new testament. More examples here, although you'll probably dismiss that as biased as well. @ 5: It's important to realize that "God" doesn't have to be the Christian concept of God. You already know that I am a Muslim. Muslims believe some things that are in the Bible, such as the Ten Commandments. However, in Islam, whenever the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Quran supersedes. Therefore, I do not believe the Fifth Commandment is completely true, because the Quran stresses accountability in numerous places and states that one person cannot be punished for the actions of others. This is also the reason why we Muslims view original sin as bull-shit. @ 6: Same as above. @ 7: The flood happened because the people deserved it. If people hadn't become sinful, God wouldn't have caused the flood in the first place. When you say flooding of the Red Sea, are you talking about God killing the Pharaoh's army after Moses walked through it? In that case, same as above. They deserved it for persecuting the Jews. As for Deuteronomy 20: 16-17, I can't make an educated judgement on that because all you're giving me is two verses. I have no idea what context they're in. And as for that text wall of Bible verses you gave me, I'm not going to bother going through those, partly because there's way too many of them and I'm too lazy, but partly because of what I said before: As a Muslim, I, by the very nature of my faith, maintain that the Bible itself is corrupted and cannot always be trusted.
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 27, 2011 4:17:54 GMT
TSL has shown previously in these debates that arguments about morality don't get anywhere with him, so instead I shall talk about something else :3 TSL, before I begin, tell me which of the following characteristics you believe are possesed by your God: 1. Omniscient/All-knowing .....a. Knows the present and past (but not the future) .....b. Knows the present, past, and future 2. Omnipresent (As often depicted of the Holy Spirit) 3. Omnipotent/Almighty 4. Omnibenevolent/All-loving 5. Timeless/Eternal .....a. Is within Time (Although having created time, still experiences time as we do) .....b. Is outside of Time (Is outside of time itself and therefor experiences past, present and future as one) 6. Immortal/Deathless (Not counting his mortal incarnation of Jesus) I don't know what religion/denomination specifically you are, so I figured it would be best to just ask you before-hand. I will ignore that a few of these lack/have more scriptural evidence than others. (Specifically how 1&3 are pretty much irrefutable while 5a is illogical) I agree with pretty much all of those, but you've confused me with 5a. Are you saying that God's perception of time is the same as it is for humans? In other words, are you saying that God supposedly created the earth in 7 Earth-days? In that case, no. God's perception of time, in Islam, is not the same as for humans, and the Quran testifies to this. Edit: Oh, and #4 is not true in Islam either. God does not love everyone. He only loves good people. He, understandably, hates those who hate him and/or do evil things.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 27, 2011 5:21:19 GMT
Then I would like to present a few of my favorite paradoxes. Many of these that people propose are often swept aside because of logical paradoxes within the actual metaphor (e.g. Creating a square circle) I will try to only present those that are logically sound.
The first is a contradiction in Allah's supposed Omnipotence and his Immortality. Can Allah kill himself? If so, he is not immortal. If not, he is not omnipotent.
The second is a contradiction with Allah's omnipotence and your aforementioned hatred of evil. Can he not eradicate evil? If he cannot then he is not omnipotent. If he can but does not, then he does not truly wish for his children to be good.
The third is a contradiction in Allah's omnipotence and omniscience. If Allah has both the knowledge and power to create a perfect being, or at least a sinless one, why wouldn't he? If he hates evil how can he knowingly and willingly create it?
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 27, 2011 5:53:36 GMT
Then I would like to present a few of my favorite paradoxes. Many of these that people propose are often swept aside because of logical paradoxes within the actual metaphor (e.g. Creating a square circle) I will try to only present those that are logically sound. The first is a contradiction in Allah's supposed Omnipotence and his Immortality. Can Allah kill himself? If so, he is not immortal. If not, he is not omnipotent. The second is a contradiction with Allah's omnipotence and your aforementioned hatred of evil. Can he not eradicate evil? If he cannot then he is not omnipotent. If he can but does not, then he does not truly wish for his children to be good. The third is a contradiction in Allah's omnipotence and omniscience. If Allah has both the knowledge and power to create a perfect being, or at least a sinless one, why wouldn't he? If he hates evil how can he knowingly and willingly create it? 1. Rather than disprove God's omnipotence, what you've really done there is just gotten stuck in a paradox. It's similar to the paradox of how God was around before anything else existed. He has no beginning, which is impossible to comprehend by humans. So the same principal applies here. When you try to fathom an all-powerful immortal being killing itself, you just get stuck. There's no way around it, and to dismiss it as the result of God being mortal or not omnipotent would be an oversimplification. 2. Of course he can eradicate evil. Evil only exists because he allows it to exist. When he gave man free will, Satan was created simultaneously because man has a choice of whether or not to be good. If God wanted to get rid of evil, man would not have free will. (Number 3 might help you understand this better) 3. Actually, he has created sinless beings. Every plant, every animal, every mountain, every drop of water, every single-celled organism, every star, is, in Islam, a sinless being. According to Islam, every being besides humans is automatically a perfect Muslim because Muslims means "one who submits to the will of God". Since no other being but humans has free will, they automatically submit to what God wants them to do, whereas man does not unless he chooses to.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 27, 2011 6:09:06 GMT
1. Rather than disprove God's omnipotence, what you've really done there is just gotten stuck in a paradox. It's similar to the paradox of how God was around before anything else existed. He has no beginning, which is impossible to comprehend by humans. So the same principal applies here. When you try to fathom an all-powerful immortal being killing itself, you just get stuck. There's no way around it, and to dismiss it as the result of God being mortal or not omnipotent would be an oversimplification. Do you have any reason to actually believe that it's unfathomable? You just sound like your trying to avoid the question. 2. Of course he can eradicate evil. Evil only exists because he allows it to exist. When he gave man free will, Satan was created simultaneously because man has a choice of whether or not to be good. If God wanted to get rid of evil, man would not have free will. (Number 3 might help you understand this better) There is no such thing as free will. It doesn't exist. It is an illusion. People are machines. Our minds are just chemical reactions. Everything we do is mechanical, predetermined by the conditions of the universe a moment before. Nothing is random, and so everything that happens happens because it was caused. If God is timeless and omniscient, as you said he was, then he would have known the exact conditions to set the universe up in so that no human would ever do something he deemed evil. Think of it this way: I am happy. Why am I happy? Certain chemicals are reacting in my brain. These chemicals are reacting the way they are because of something that caused them to. That thing was caused by something else, which was caused by something else, etc... Everything is predictable if you know the set conditions of everything at any moment in time. When you flip a coin, there isn't really a 50/50 shot. That coin will land how it does because of air resistance, the speed it is rotating, etc... all of which is how it is because of preexisting conditions. We, as humans, only believe we have free will because we believe we have choices. However our decisions are really just reactions to previous conditions, which were themselves reactions.
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 27, 2011 7:30:17 GMT
TSL, you know how bible verses work. Just look at Deuteronomy 20. It's like me saying "third line of page ten" and you saying I don't have any context. Find it yourself. I did. God was saying that the Israelites were allowed to kill everything that breathes (woman and children, too, which are specifically spared in some civilizations) of the nations that were taken land that was promised them as "inheritance".
You wanted some quotes of God disobeying his rules (I included ordering others to disobey his own rules). I delivered.
I dunno what you're debating with Ggoodie, I'll read into that later.
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 27, 2011 21:27:16 GMT
1. Rather than disprove God's omnipotence, what you've really done there is just gotten stuck in a paradox. It's similar to the paradox of how God was around before anything else existed. He has no beginning, which is impossible to comprehend by humans. So the same principal applies here. When you try to fathom an all-powerful immortal being killing itself, you just get stuck. There's no way around it, and to dismiss it as the result of God being mortal or not omnipotent would be an oversimplification. Do you have any reason to actually believe that it's unfathomable? You just sound like your trying to avoid the question. Well, after sleeping on it, I've reasoned that it is, in fact, completely possible for the immortal God to kill himself without disproving either his immortality or his omnipotence. All he'd have to do is use his omnipotence to take away his immortality, and then proceed to kill himself. Of course, there's no way he would ever do that, but if he wanted to, that's probably how it would happen. 2. Of course he can eradicate evil. Evil only exists because he allows it to exist. When he gave man free will, Satan was created simultaneously because man has a choice of whether or not to be good. If God wanted to get rid of evil, man would not have free will. (Number 3 might help you understand this better) There is no such thing as free will. It doesn't exist. It is an illusion. People are machines. Our minds are just chemical reactions. Everything we do is mechanical, predetermined by the conditions of the universe a moment before. Nothing is random, and so everything that happens happens because it was caused. If God is timeless and omniscient, as you said he was, then he would have known the exact conditions to set the universe up in so that no human would ever do something he deemed evil. Think of it this way: I am happy. Why am I happy? Certain chemicals are reacting in my brain. These chemicals are reacting the way they are because of something that caused them to. That thing was caused by something else, which was caused by something else, etc... Everything is predictable if you know the set conditions of everything at any moment in time. When you flip a coin, there isn't really a 50/50 shot. That coin will land how it does because of air resistance, the speed it is rotating, etc... all of which is how it is because of preexisting conditions. We, as humans, only believe we have free will because we believe we have choices. However our decisions are really just reactions to previous conditions, which were themselves reactions. What, you don't think it's possible to believe in predestination and free will simultaneously? I certainly do.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 27, 2011 21:38:54 GMT
Well, after sleeping on it, I've reasoned that it is, in fact, completely possible for the immortal God to kill himself without disproving either his immortality or his omnipotence. All he'd have to do is use his omnipotence to take away his immortality, and then proceed to kill himself. By being able to take away his immortality he wouldn't be inherently immortal. What, you don't think it's possible to believe in predestination and free will simultaneously? I certainly do. That doesn't make any sense. If everything is set in stone before hand then nothing can be changed by people. Therefor, they have no free will. They don't have a choice as to what they will do as what they will do is predetermined. So no, it isn't possible. That should be obvious. Predestination = Unchangeable future Unchangeable future = No freedom of choice No freedome of choice = No free will
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 27, 2011 21:57:13 GMT
By being able to take away his immortality he wouldn't be inherently immortal. Being able to make yourself mortal =/= Already being mortal. That doesn't make any sense. If everything is set in stone before hand then nothing can be changed by people. Therefor, they have no free will. They don't have a choice as to what they will do as what they will do is predetermined. So no, it isn't possible. That should be obvious. Predestination = Unchangeable future Unchangeable future = No freedom of choice No freedom of choice = No free will The way I look at it is, you have a choice, but at the same time that choice is already predetermined. In other words, you have a choice, but what you ultimately don't have is the choice to change what that choice will be. To me, it's not all that complicated, even though it kind of seems like it at first glance.
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 27, 2011 22:13:00 GMT
TSL, that's not a choice at all. "You can choose to kill a person or not kill them but you have to choose to not kill them". The very definition of a choice implies that there could be two different outcomes.
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Post by GGoodie on Jun 27, 2011 22:25:10 GMT
Being able to make yourself mortal =/= Already being mortal. Yes but being inherently immortal means that it is part of your definition. If he can take away his immortality then it isn't inherent. The way I look at it is, you have a choice, but at the same time that choice is already predetermined. In other words, you have a choice, but what you ultimately don't have is the choice to change what that choice will be. To me, it's not all that complicated, even though it kind of seems like it at first glance. That's not a choice. Frankly, that should be obvious. The illusion of choice doesn't make it a choice. If the outcome is predetermined then there is no choice, even if to the person it seems like there is.
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Post by Qwerty on Jun 27, 2011 22:38:12 GMT
Sort of like in a video game, particularly linear ones. Look at HL2. The character has a choice: He can continue with the rebellion, or join the combine. The problem is that we all know he doesn't have any choice at all. It's predetermined, so the player doesn't really have any form of free will save minor choices such as "Do I pick up this health pack or not?".
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 30, 2011 17:25:22 GMT
Just happened upon this argument from an ancient Greek philosopher. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then why is there evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -Epicurus (Greek philosopher, BC 341-270). The only one of those that is even relevant here is #2. And even that one is flawed. You could use the same logic to say God is benevolent, because good exists as well as evil. God allows good and evil to exist simultaneously.
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Post by V.I.R.O.S. on Jun 30, 2011 18:01:48 GMT
3. Actually, he has created sinless beings. Every plant, every animal, every mountain, every drop of water, every single-celled organism, every star, is, in Islam, a sinless being. According to Islam, every being besides humans is automatically a perfect Muslim because Muslims means "one who submits to the will of God". Since no other being but humans has free will, they automatically submit to what God wants them to do, whereas man does not unless he chooses to. Actually, as it happens, animals don't really submit to Allah's will if he expressly bans homosexuality. There is quite a long list of animals that have gay sex, so since Allah bans same-sex sex these animals aren't submitting to his will.
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Post by xShadowLordx on Jun 30, 2011 18:27:52 GMT
3. Actually, he has created sinless beings. Every plant, every animal, every mountain, every drop of water, every single-celled organism, every star, is, in Islam, a sinless being. According to Islam, every being besides humans is automatically a perfect Muslim because Muslims means "one who submits to the will of God". Since no other being but humans has free will, they automatically submit to what God wants them to do, whereas man does not unless he chooses to. Actually, as it happens, animals don't really submit to Allah's will if he expressly bans homosexuality. There is quite a long list of animals that have gay sex, so since Allah bans same-sex sex these animals aren't submitting to his will. *facepalm* Animals/plants/all other beings aren't supposed to follow the exact same rules as humans, you know. Homosexuality is just one of the many examples of this.
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Post by GGoodie on Jul 6, 2011 6:53:05 GMT
The only one of those that is even relevant here is #2. And even that one is flawed. You could use the same logic to say God is benevolent, because good exists as well as evil. God allows good and evil to exist simultaneously. Then he is not benevolent. He may not be malevolent, but if evil exists at all then he obviously wanted it to exist.
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Post by Qwerty on Jul 7, 2011 2:16:51 GMT
Fine, then if God doesn't want homosexuality to exist, why did he create it as an inherent flaw in humanity?
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Post by GloveParty on Jul 25, 2011 15:26:04 GMT
Homosexuality isn't banned by christianity actually... Christ went and straight-up said that the only Old Testament laws that apply are the Ten Commandments- so I'm going to have a different view on this than TSL.
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