|
Post by Vertigo on Jul 1, 2010 1:01:33 GMT
Bah, all of these technicalities.
Very well, but this thread sort of needs specifics to be stated...
|
|
|
Post by aWeSum on Jul 1, 2010 1:02:10 GMT
specifics such as...
|
|
|
Post by Buggy793 on Jul 1, 2010 9:10:53 GMT
I suppose I ought to introduce myself over again. I'm Buggy. I'm an old-earth creationist who does indeed believe there is strong evidence for an omnipotent, omnipresent God. The one described in the Bible. I haven't looked through this thread carefully yet, so I'll probably edit this post in a few minutes... EDIT: Yep. Here I am, editing my post. First, I want to get some things straight. I don't believe God has a gender. It's ridiculous to think so because he can't reproduce. He's the only being like himself anywhere. When I say "God" I mean a "dimensionally-transcendental" being that has infinite power/energy. Hence, he has power over dimensions, so God could easily observe the Creation event from anywhere, as shown in the Genesis creation story. In Genesis, the point of observation is from the surface of the Earth, looking up at the clouds, as observed by the Holy Spirit(Also God). On with the show. I don't know a way to explain the Trinity. I'll get to it, but nothing for now. @qwerty You are correct that there are higher dimensions. I've looked into it a BIT, and figured 10-d string theory makes the most sense. Only one minor difference. I believe that there was a beginning to the universe about 17 million years ago in a Big Bang type explosion, started by God. Our Sun then formed through normal processes, then the earth was formed, Then the Moon when a mars-sized object crashed into the Earth(Surely you've heard this part before). Moon. Then God created again. Cue the dramatic music. The Genesis story continues from here, but I won't explain details until I need to. Also, that's quite a generalization when you say that "most major scientists" are atheists. aWeSum>>"If an intelligent entity does indeed drive the universe, than it has to have come from somewhere." What an absolutely dreadful argument. No, only things that BEGIN to exist have a cause. Simple Cause-effect. If it has no cause, it's because it has no cause or doesn't exist. I opt for the former because our universe is an effect of something. @micro Farad If you won't add anything of value or won't take the time to read previous posts, please don't post anything... please. There is a reason this is in serious debate. @phantom Zero >>"Why would "God" send billions of people to Hell and have the select half of the world go to Heaven?" It's an extremely complicated answer. It may not seem like it, but it has some radical implications about atheists and theists. Quite technically God doesn't end up wanting to send people to Hell. Us "Christians" do. When we don't tell people we know about God, their blood is on our hands. In other words, you would have to absolutely HATE someone to not tell them about Hell. Also there is an "age of accountability" for going to Hell/Heaven. A child who dies, for example, would go to Heaven. There are several points in the Bible pointing to this view. The clearest being when Jesus says "Let the little children come to me, for their's is the kingdom of Heaven."(Not an exact quote-lol) Furthermore, it ends up being better for nonbelievers to be in Hell, because Heaven WOULD be Hell in any case, because they never learn to know how to enjoy the joys of Heaven(I hope you understood that nearly-gibberish sentence). That's the complicated part. Enough for now. Going to bed. Good Night to all.
|
|
|
Post by Yonder on Jul 1, 2010 12:34:35 GMT
It's hard to say. Both sides have some good reasons why their belief is the true one.
Atheists or nonbelievers take physics on their side. However the cause of the Big Bang is still unknown, rendering this argument as useless.
However, Theists have the belief of an omnipresent, omnipotent being ruling over us all. This is a good argument since many who are in a crisis or are unfortunate in their lives have someone to 'believe in' (this kind of sounds weak lol). It also says that anybody who is good will be rewarded, and anybody who sins will be punished, inserting order in society. But they don't have the proof that he exists or where he came from.
@buggy, everything has to have a start, even God. You can't just say 'he was there'. It's like a normal human being when they are born; their life starts. So God has to have a start or else he wouldn't exist since everything we know of can be followed back to a logical start (except the Big Bang).
Now I'm not Agnostic because I believe that sharing your personal opinion is crucial. However I don't want to put myself on any side of the debate.
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Jul 1, 2010 17:21:39 GMT
The cause of the big bang isn't really unknown, and saying it is just shows some level of ignorance. Ever heard of M Theory? The lack of one thing doesn't invalidate all of known science and give some book written long ago more power.
That argument for God isn't really a good argument. It's just why people believe in him.
You see, you are assuming we have a logical start. M theory. You are ignoring what happens before the Big Bang. Besides, the laws of physics do allow for that to happen. If you say the Big Bang is illogical because you can't understand how it could happen, then you would have to say God is even more illogical because it also apparently came from nowhere, and it could not happen. There is the key difference.
|
|
|
Post by Yonder on Jul 1, 2010 17:34:57 GMT
I do know that, but you have to look a little into psychology too. If a human believes so strongly in something he will belive it exists in reality. You cannot tell him he is wrong, no matter how logical the fact. Now think this on a big scale. When everybody thinks the same, it will be considered fact. And since many theists believe this and ignore others who oppose this, to them it is ultimate and the truth.
I never said I don't understand how it could happen. Many theists believe this. Many nonbelievers don't know how the fact above can happen too.
|
|
|
Post by Vertigo on Jul 1, 2010 17:50:29 GMT
The whole 'everthing has to have a start' thing bugs me. We end up with an endless chain of things creating or 'starting up' other things. An endless chain is just as unlikely in the real world, as something being here forever.
@awesome-Specifics as your viewpoints, so I can tell what your point is. You can't expect me to know what you mean just because 'god' isn't capitalized.
|
|
|
Post by Buggy793 on Jul 1, 2010 19:28:51 GMT
Just to try to clear something up, you can go ahead and refer to God as He. He repeatedly calls himself a good Father, and Jesus was a man, so it's fine to say "he." I'm sure God won't mind. @qwerty Yes, you could say I'm ignoring the prequel to the Big Bang. I would agree to that. I already told you why. YonderNo, God does not need a start. He's NOT like a normal person being born. Otherwise you're assuming a being in another dimension, born from "something" who created this dimension. Their dimension had to have a start from something. This is only leading to what Vertigo has established well. An illogical endless chain. Yes, it's true - that stuff you said about psychology. I know that first-hand. It's a cause of delusions in schizophrenics like me. When you believe that you'll be attacked by wild dogs when you step out of the car, you step out with your eyes shut, fists clenched. Ready to fight off wild dogs. On the other hand most delusions have absolutely no basis in reality or science. M-Theory: Assuming it's true, it still assumes infinite chains or other static universes. Same problem. Furthermore, it's nearly impossible(If not impossible) to prove. I'm not saying thats proof against it, by any means, but it makes it hard to swallow. You can't find proof of other dimensions/universes. VertigoBy "decapitalizing" God to god, he assumes there is a god, just not the god described in "some ancient book." Most likely a deism-like God, where he created then left us to fend for ourselves and created M-theory true in other universes(just a joke). Yay for short posts!
|
|
|
Post by Yonder on Jul 1, 2010 19:54:21 GMT
Just on a side note: how does a person who believes in the Christian God think about another person whose beliefs lie in Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, etc? Does he believe they are deceived/false? Well, then you should provide proof that their God(s) is the false on to believe in. Just wondering.
|
|
|
Post by aWeSum on Jul 1, 2010 20:25:14 GMT
The conclusion I'm reaching with this thread is that with humans current level universal knowledge, it would be inaccurate to state that ther definitly is or is not a god.
|
|
|
Post by Vertigo on Jul 1, 2010 20:34:09 GMT
@buggy-I know what not leaving it capitalized could mean, but I've seen people who believe in "God from some acient book", type is as 'god'.
|
|
|
Post by Phantom Zero on Jul 1, 2010 21:12:39 GMT
Buggy would a child go to "heaven" even if he/she had killed some one?
|
|
|
Post by Yonder on Jul 1, 2010 23:08:15 GMT
No, since that child has sinned.
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Jul 2, 2010 1:13:14 GMT
What if the child felt really, really bad about it? Or, what if there was a perfectly nice guy that donated to charities and spent almost his whole life volunteering and went to Hell because he was Atheist? Or some person that committed everything short of rape and murder and went to Heaven because he happened to believe in Him and was therefore forgiven for absolutely everything?
|
|
|
Post by goombageek on Jul 2, 2010 1:25:15 GMT
Heaven would be hell for atheists such as myself? Yeah, it's much better to burn in a vat of boiling mysteriousness for eternity than be in a sensibly perfect world that you don't understand the inner workings of. Do you understand eternity? Not even the most evil person in the world deserves "eternal damnation", because anything divided by infinity comes out to zero!
Fortunately, instead of going through this cosmic ordeal, I firmly believe that I will simply cease to exist when I die, a concept I couldn't contemplate until I cut off all of my religious beliefs.
And no, I don't want to hear sincerest apologies that I'll be getting punished FOREVER, not sure if you'll say that but I've met people who would, and it annoys the heck out of me.
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Jul 2, 2010 1:34:18 GMT
|
|
|
Post by artcoursecannon on Jul 10, 2010 14:09:15 GMT
Instead of trying to say why your idea is right, could you read this?
Guys. We have no proof that any religion is true, or that any god exists. There is also no testable evidence that a god doesn't exist. In other words, we cannot say for a fact that a god does or does not exist. However, we can create unsupported reasoning (for both sides) based on our own thinking. But really, I don't think that gets anybody closer to being right.
I am atheist, because I believe that religion is just an excuse to explain something we have no answers for. I believe it is also an emotional crutch, in that theists believe they will always be loved and protected by a higher being(s).
This is most likely how religion started: Ancient cultures began believing in an afterlife before we knew how to speak (if your religion believes evolution). Modern religion formed the same way; as hope that your loved ones are okay after they die. They were also formed as a way to explain the unexplainable, once people began thinking about creation, how we got here, life, etc.
This sorta got out of hand, as some religions spread through force. There is a method some religions, especially Christianity and Islam, still use today. The acronym F.O.G. was used to convert civilizations to different religions. Fear is created by adding to a religion a sense of punishment, such as a Hell. Obligation is created when people are given a purpose in their religion to achieve a sort of ultimate goal (heaven, nirvana, moksha, etc.). Guilt is created when people must be persuaded to behave or participate in the ideal cultures of the religion.
Feel free to comment, I'm probably going to write more.
|
|
johnbal
Newbie
"I'd rather live with a good question than a bad answer" -Aryeh Frimer
Posts: 2
|
Post by johnbal on Jul 11, 2010 3:16:14 GMT
Micro Farad, the thing i hate most about this god thing is that nobody ever asks, "Was it God that trapped him under the ice in the first place?"
|
|
|
Post by greggster990 on Jul 11, 2010 3:28:16 GMT
I believe in both the Big Bang and God. I know there's a scientific explanation for everything, but what if God drives the science? Where did the speck at the beginning come from? How was it made? I support your words Buggy would a child go to "heaven" even if he/she had killed some one? If he believed in god and asked god to forgive him he would go to heaven
|
|
|
Post by artcoursecannon on Jul 13, 2010 12:19:55 GMT
Please continue the debate, but listen to this first:
We have no evidence proving the existence or non-existence of a god. Therefore, you can believe whatever you want, and your opinions are only based on adjacent proofs and unsupported reasoning.
So as long as we know that nobody will have their opinion changed in this thread, I hope we can all keep ourselves from giving into our tempers (not that it has happened yet).
|
|
|
Post by priok on Aug 21, 2010 17:30:34 GMT
I think there is a God, and the atheists are probably not enlightened. If God didn't exist, then the holy bible wouldn't have been written.
I think you need to be once again enlightened to feel messages from God, it happened to me before.
|
|
|
Post by zaixionito on Aug 21, 2010 17:45:18 GMT
I as well think that there is God.
However, I've found that it is useless to argue with people who believe differently. Someone has some valid points on why there is not a god, and tries to convince me, while I do the same that there is a god. At the end, little changes, besides my face turning red, and my finger popping off. It is a pain to collect them a put them back on my hand, so I don't bother.
|
|
|
Post by clockwork on Aug 21, 2010 20:44:56 GMT
I agree, Though in my experience. I destroy the interlopers. And walk home with a sore hand. (Pimp slapped...)
I think it's unreasonable for this debate to continue. No one will change their beliefs, nothing will be proven, and you are trying to clash Religion with Science... Just doesn't work...
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Aug 27, 2010 7:19:24 GMT
Actually, we've had a couple converts here before. Unless they were all trolls. Which they might have been...
|
|
|
Post by Elmach on Sept 1, 2010 1:08:13 GMT
Why God instead of the Giant Spaghetti Monster? (or Great Pasta Being, or Great Pizza Object, or Unicorns Watching Us, or It-Which-We-Can't-Identify, or Energy, or some combination?)
Why one god, as apposed to two? (or three, or four, or seven hundred ninety two, or infinity, or some other number?)
Which God?
It seems to me that the standard Christian God is just one of many. Why should that one be real and all the others fake?
I believe that there is a god, but we will be unable to figure out what it is until we die.
I believe that the punishment is boredom. For some time, with no imagination. Then you go to heaven (or something of the sort) or another life.
|
|
|
Post by fighterdestroyer on Sept 1, 2010 14:11:40 GMT
I believe there is no god (hellooo evolution people!). I believe everything was created by a pixie on a bike xD. Nah I believe in the brane theory(or a pixie on a bike)
|
|
|
Post by Qwerty on Sept 2, 2010 3:39:53 GMT
The brane theory IS a pixie on a bike. Duh. Basic string theory.
|
|
|
Post by Artifact123 on Sept 6, 2010 15:18:09 GMT
"If god made us, then who made god?" -My father
|
|
|
Post by Rock on Sept 9, 2010 2:48:30 GMT
well, I believe there is a god. How do you think the world was created? A random explosion that somehow created a perfect atmosphere for life? I don't think so. What was there since before time began? What created it all if there is no god? There couldn't have always been life, tim, space, etc., so what made it? The only answer is something we could never comprehend...a god, which is why I feel there are so many people who argue against.
|
|
|
Post by disabled on Sept 9, 2010 2:56:48 GMT
well, I believe there is a megagod. How does god think he/she/it was created? A random explosion that somehow created a perfect white beard for life? I don't think so. What was there since before god began? What created god if there is no megagod? There couldn't have always been god, so what made him? The only answer is something god could never comprehend...a megagod, which is why I feel there are so many gods who argue against. fixed
|
|
|