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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 6, 2010 19:03:20 GMT
Google' WebP Image FormatRead about it here. If you want more information just google it. So what do you think of it today? What do you think is it's future? Will it ever become a web standard? Shall it revolutionize the web? Post all of your answers/debates in this thread!
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Post by disabled on Oct 6, 2010 20:05:43 GMT
I would have answered already in the other thread, but it was too off topic. So I think, spec wise WebP is better then Jpeg. Thats hardly surprising because Jpeg is 20 years old, so everyone who has a little knowledge about image compression could outdo jpeg compression wise. The encoder they offered is about as good as their VP8 encoder, so its horrible. That could be changed and they could achieve their 30% goal, if they tried. Since they didn't try with VP8 and started encoding Youtube to VP8, I'm not sure how dedicated they are to quality. But lets think they fixed the encoder and it creates a 30% better image then Jpeg. WebP is much more complex to decode then Jpeg. So you will save 30% bytes transfered, but it will not save on your battery on your mobile, quite the contrary. WebP stores color information only at a quarter the resolution then the luminance information. Thats quite common for Videos, but Jpeg can store the color information at full resolution. To illustrate the difference, I made the following comparison: The right line is with half-res color information like in WebP. (Both enlarged by x4) You can get away with that for most images, but some just get raped. PNG is a lossless format and for some content, you need lossless. And I very much doubt that WebP could compress flat content like the line above or some cartoons better then png. And the kicker for me is: After 20 years of evolution in image compression technology, google comes up with 30% added compression? That is a joke. When you compare Mpeg1 to h264, you can compress movies more like to 30% and not by 30% at the same quality. Its very unlikely that microsoft and apple will implement WebP anytime soon. And 30% extra compression is just not enough to convince the majority to install some WebP plugin just for images. Especially now that everyone has broadband and flatrates are available even for mobile phones. Oh and animation... Why should google care about animation in a standard for pictures? They have WebM you know...
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Post by Qwerty on Oct 7, 2010 2:20:33 GMT
To compress (har har) the above message:
There are already systems out that do a better job.
Note that, like most image compression, it retains the overall meaning, but in this case it is such extreme compression that it's one sentence but contains none of the technical detail.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 7, 2010 5:45:23 GMT
OK I understand and I thought that WebM would be the animation thingeh...
After reading your whole paragraph I realize that google really didn't do that well... They could have made it so much better than they did...
And I didn't realize that a 30% compression difference is not a big difference and 70% one would be more acceptable.
Meh, I guess I'm sticking with png.
Now all I need to do is wait for a lossless format that is smaller than jpg. That I would like.
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Post by disabled on Oct 7, 2010 12:35:35 GMT
Uhm yes, WebM is the animation/video thingy...
And the problem this format has is more of a political and patent based problem, then a technical. It wouldn't take very much effort to implement WebM in IE/FF/BrowserX and push the update to every user. But like with WebM, many big companies are skeptical about it being patent free or they have their own solutions or they simply don't want to use some standard from someone else. And well... 30% is of course a big difference, but given the age of jpeg and its support in the industry, 30% is simply not enough to change the industry.
But there is a reason for Jpeg and being lossy is not a big deal for most content. Png is for images with flat colors, jpg is for photos and complex images. And you will never see a lossless format that is smaller then jpg in all cases. Even 100% jpg compresses photos much better then png and going to 95% doesn't visually decrease the image quality and you never will beat that with lossless compression.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 7, 2010 12:47:43 GMT
I see. I look a jpg quite a bit differently than before.
The only problem I have with jpg is with small images with writing that always gets scrambled. >:C
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Post by Qwerty on Oct 7, 2010 13:45:44 GMT
Yeah, I've had far too many bad JPG experiences. Someone tried making the Nonja torture chamber for the map, and it didn't work because it was JPG. Back in the days of WXsand, JPG file format has broken many games.
Plus, it messes up text...
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Post by disabled on Oct 7, 2010 14:15:53 GMT
Just because people are stupid enough to screw up jpeg images doesn't mean its useless. And those would be the same who would screw up WebP images. You can't spot the differences for 95% jpegs from the uncompressed sources (if you don't use low-res color like in the screen above) unless you put them side by side. Even 85% is very hard. Still for black/white maps png even compresses better then jpg. And I also have seen enough pictures ruined by jpeg compression, but thats a reason to teach proper jpeg compression and not to teach "always use png". And if you use MS Paint to create images, everything is lost anyways.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 7, 2010 15:46:07 GMT
Yea I guess, but for the BIG resolutions where detail isn't important it is good. Otherwise I always stick with png...
So it looks like WebP is just another little improvement to Jpg.
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Post by Qwerty on Oct 7, 2010 19:41:34 GMT
At least MS paint puts the pixels in the right places. I didn't say JPG was useless, I just said I've had many bad experiences with it being improperly used, so I use PNG to be safe.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 7, 2010 19:58:38 GMT
I also use png for similar reasons... Oh well... lets hope that in another decade someone will come up with something better...
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Post by disabled on Oct 7, 2010 23:51:28 GMT
If you use PNG exclusively because you had bad experiences with jpeg kinda shows you are not experienced enough with compressing images. If others are too stupid to use properly compression images, how should they learn if you just use png? Well there are situations and people, where I would request them to send me only png and not jpeg images. But thats only, when I expect them to be stupid. Myself, I'd always use the proper compression algorithm and that is jpeg most of the time.
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Post by Qwerty on Oct 8, 2010 3:18:54 GMT
And I'm supposed to be an expert? I don't exactly compress images often; PNG works fine for me.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 8, 2010 5:07:27 GMT
Then please enlighten us on how to properly compress jpg images?
Because it would be very helpful.
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Post by disabled on Oct 8, 2010 8:20:46 GMT
short:Its not that hard. If the image has few colors or you absolutely need lossless compression or you have to edit it again later, then use png. If not, use jpeg at a compression level no more then 90. If the image is extra valuable to you, store a png on your computer and upload a jpg to the web. more:If you use jpeg, every sane program (probably not MS paint) has a selector where you can select how much it will be compressed. Most of the time, you have a live preview, so you can select a compression level and see if the quality degraded (too much). Usually the level is a value between 0 and 100, 90 is always a good start, most of the time, you don't need more. Many images can get away with 80 without loosing too much detail. Here is Memzaks avatar with jpeg-75: disabled.zzl.org/memzak-75.jpgdisabled.zzl.org/memzak.png (original, for better comparability, I added a background color.) The jpeg is 10,504 bytes, the png is 66,697 bytes. So you have a compression ratio of over 6 compared to png (the uncompressed image would be over half a MB) And yes, if you zoom in and look very closely, you will see differences. But thats not the point. I'm not sure how you surf the web, but I don't do it at 4x zoom. If you can barely see it, everyone else who doesn't look closely will not notice the difference. And thats what jpeg is about. extra:Oh and another thing about compression: If you use images on the web, scale them appropriately. Memzaks avatar is viewed at 100x100 pixels, yet it is stored at 451x401. If stored at the proper resolution the images are: disabled.zzl.org/memzak2.png (8,360 bytes) disabled.zzl.org/memzak2.jpg (2,212 bytes) Advanced info:Like I said earlier, there is something called color subsampling. Every video (you know of) is stored in a way, where the color information is only stored at a quarter the resolution as the luminance information. (So they are not in the RGB colorspace.) Jpeg knows a similar scheme. Jpegs are not stored in RGB colorspace either, they also have one luminance and two chrominance planes. The color planes can be stored at different resolutions. For most natural images, its enough to store the color at quarter resolution. Higher color resolution is only needed, if you have fine sharp transitions between different colors or fine details in colored regions. This is more visible in small images, because if you look, you usually look closer. The first jpg above was stored with quarter color res, the small 100x100 version is stored with full color information. As a comparison, here is a quarter res version: disabled.zzl.org/memzak3.jpg (2,230 bytes) If you look closely, you will see while it still looks very similar, there is a noticeable loss of detail. You don't have control of the subsampling in every program. I use Gimp for my image editing and there you have full control about the subsampling in the advanced options. I don't remember seeing that option in Paint.Net and I don't remember it in photoshop either, but I didn't use photoshop for (10?) years. Still photoshop should have it. *edit* extra for png:Pngs are compressed with the same compression algorithm zip uses (deflate). So you might know in many zip programs you can set a compression level too. Better compression levels just use more time to compress. While only few image editing software allows to set a png compression level, there are standalone programs you can use. Gimp again compresses pngs pretty good. But sometimes you can get as much as a 50% size reduction losslessly. I can't really recommend a software here, I use pngout, but its a command line program, so you probably don't want to use it. For more information, go here
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 8, 2010 11:09:57 GMT
A wall of text. Well worth the read.
Too bad Jpg can't handle transparency... but at least I know how to speed up the web! ;D
Thanks disabled!
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Post by Qwerty on Oct 8, 2010 14:14:08 GMT
Ooh, that IS interesting. I guess I can use JPG on some things.
Of course, it should only affect loading time the first time you view it since it's cached after that, but still, good for memory savings.
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Post by ~Memzak~ on Oct 9, 2010 6:33:43 GMT
Yea...
Just on another note.... How do you increase how long a file is cached? Because I'd like to cache the forum images (the ones on tinypic) so that while at school and while browsing teh forums, I can still see (they might be outdated) the images and have the forums look good for a change...
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