shattered timeline, or is it?

[secret]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonition_(2007_film)

Can anyone who have watched this film rearrange the days back into the right order?

jayisgames.com/archives/2011/04/dr_stanleys_house_2.php#walkthrough


Some films and games have extremely fragmentated, convoluted and twisted timelines

For most of them my hyprothesis is (Quoted to aviod linking to that forum directly (which might result in suspected advertising)):

My hypothesis is (assume type 2 time travel in this game(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel: History is flexible and is subject to change) is true)
Instead of simply tracing along the timeloops, we can also consider the "time" where the timeloops and intersections are formed and destoryed.
That way it will seemed that there are two scales of time (not to be confused with multiple time dimensions):
A local scale (the timeline graph of e.g. this game)
A global scale (above in additon to the events "outside" yet related to the timeline (e.g. the "time" where the CTC and intersections are formed and destroyed.)

So the whole timeline can be resolved as: event A-> generation of CTC and intersection -> event B -> destruction of the CTC and intersection.

As the event where CTC and intersection is destroyed occurs "later" than the formation of CTC and intersection, the aforementioned change will not interfence with the future or past of the local timeline (i.e. the timeline graph of this game).

From the above, if Future dr stanley does not order james to travel back to time to correct the past, even though the intersections in the past had "happened", they will "then" dissapears. Therefore Dr stanley becomes not stopped.

If type 1 time travel is true, things will be simpler. The entire timeline graph is predetermined and as it progress, it follows the pre-determined rules to change.
IN OTHER WORDS: Fate

(Flaw: Cannot explain the origin of the screwdriver nor the ladder)

(Note this is just a speculation, not a scientific essay, thus there's no scientific evidence included, feel free to discuss)

P.S. I still don't know how to incorporate relativity into my hyprothesis, as i still confused by it

However, convoluted timelines with all the days scrambled seemed rare to me (such as that film in the wikipedia link), thus i've no idea how to piece the days back in order to find out 'when' the first twist takes place.

[secret]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonition_(2004_film)

he finds a strange newspaper page foretelling his daughter's death and with her photograph (which catches his eye). However, she is at that moment still alive in the back seat, but the paper says she died at about 8:00 pm, which is the current time.

Meanwhile, Nana can't unlatch her seatbelt and Ayaka crosses the street to get Hideki's assistance. Suddenly, a truck hits the car, while their daughter is still inside. Ayaka and Hideki run to the car, only to watch as a fire ignites and the car explodes into flames before they can save their daughter ... It is explained that the truck driver was dead before the impact, having suffered from a seizure. The newspaper page blows away and Hideki cannot find it again ...Hideki stumbles around looking for it while Ayaka tries to stop him, not believing that there ever was a newspaper page.

Rei Kigata->precognitions->foiled the precognitions->grey marks on arm->after 32 foils->become a dark blotch

Hideki has a nightmarish experience when he is thrown into different time periods ... More events lead to him reliving his worst nightmare: Nana's death. His desire to save his daughter causes him to attempt to change that past event.
Repeatedly, he fails to change the events until he figures out the correct resolution, and he allows himself to remain in the car as it explodes after getting Ayaka to take Nana to safety. The very end shows Ayaka screaming for her husband and Nana lying on the road. Nana looks up to see the newspaper page floating in the air. Nana watches as it falls to the ground, only to show that the person predicted to die was indeed Hideki.

Here, Fate is so cunning that it will remove anyone who tried to foil its plans
(Due to supernatural involvement and that only one CTC is present, it is meaningless to investigate in the timeline perspective)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonition_(2007_film)

The doorbell rings and Linda opens the door to a man in a police uniform. He introduces himself as Sheriff Reilly (Marc Macaulay) and tells Linda that her husband died in a car accident involving a truck on the previous day. She¡¦s in shock, and receives the details of her husband¡¦s death in a blur.

She stares at the "Mile 220" sign, which is where Sheriff Reilly told her the accident took place

Linda notices that they¡¦ve reached the "Mile 220" sign

Actually, Linda only know that the accident happened NEAR the Mile 220 sign, but not the exact place. Should Fate reveal this infomation to her, its plans will surely be foiled.

Hence the exact location of the accident is the "keystone precognition" for Fate, as this is the only thing that can broke the cycle (thus foiling Fate's plan) should Linda knew that

In the timeline perspective, i still yet to piece the timeline back together as the timeline is more complicated than www.eblong.com/zarf/nosgoth/timeline.html

[Qwerty]

Ah, timelines oh timelines. They can get pretty twisted to and fro. Then, of course, you have multiple timelines, converging ones, parallel timelines moving in different directions...

[secret]

time sometimes give me an impression of a river

It seemd to 'flow' at a constant 'rate'
I wonder if it make sense to say an acceleration of time (i.e. rate of change of flow rate of time)

Well I guess i need to have deeper understanding on relativity to see whether all these interpretations will work

parallel timelines moving in different directions

never thought of that before, lol

[endy123]

some permanent time loops should be impossible due to entropy.

Mainly thinking of Objects sent back and given to oneself. From the view of someone outside the loop they would instantly age to the point the loop couldn't continue.

Information is trickier. Possible it would decay likewise, but not sure there.

I don't think the EXACT same events could repeat themselves in any case.

in gaining information from the future you could have foreknowledge but would alter the odds of that future in the process.

[Qwerty]

Actually, that model of permanent time loops was recently disproven. The model was repeated and loops were formed.

[endy123]

Jun 5, 2011 23:52:33 GMT Qwerty said:

Actually, that model of permanent time loops was recently disproven. The model was repeated and loops were formed.

I can't see how it would work though unless the entropy of the object were somehow reversed.

it might still be possible considering you're sending something against the flow of time to begin with. From it's perspective everything else undergoes an entropy reversal.

You could picture reversing the situation so that from the Universe's perspective the object is entropy reversed instead and could safely repeat the loop indefinitely.

[secret]

Jun 6, 2011 12:20:11 GMT endy123 said:

I can't see how it would work though unless the entropy of the object were somehow reversed.

it might still be possible considering you're sending something against the flow of time to begin with. From it's perspective everything else undergoes an entropy reversal.

You could picture reversing the situation so that from the Universe's perspective the object is entropy reversed instead and could safely repeat the loop indefinitely.

Below is my speculations (still yet to test them with einstein's equations)
Either
1. timeloops still work even if entropy increase normally, but then it is technically not a loop but a spiral, which constantly spiral around in time while at the same time move along the direction of increasing entropy. If that's the case then timeloops are like the time versions of black holes
Or
2. Time and entropy are proportional, thus an increase in time lead to an increase in entropy. Therefore any act of travelling back in time also reverse entropy. Here the timeloop is really a loop now
Or
(More complicated mechanism yet to be discovered)
Or
Time is a phenomenon caused by some collective matter energy interactions (i.e. Time is an illusion)

[Qwerty]

Should I move this to debate?

[endy123]

Jun 6, 2011 22:52:52 GMT Qwerty said:

Should I move this to debate?

that sounds good.

make sure you do it a couple days ago though, okay?

[Qwerty]

Alrighty, I'll just hop in my TARDIS and move it over.

[Fringe Pioneer]

The way Richard Feynman (well, the way a video of Richard Feynman teaching a physics lecture) explained entropy to me is merely applied probability, from what I understand. Say you have an initially "ordered" state of 20 red dots in the left square and 20 blue dots in the right square, and the squares are adjacent. Now let's say that the common side between those squares is removed, so that the two squares become one rectangle and the colored dots are allowed to mix. If these dots aren't at rest, they're going to mix. The probability of those dots staying separated as they are is infinitesimally slim: indeed, the limit of the probability is 0.

Now, what most textbooks will imply is that the probability of the dots not staying/returning to their initial state is 0. What they don't make clear is that, as a matter of fact, the dots going into any one particular state is just as likely as the dots going back to their initial state, i.e. 0. Indeed, the limit as a value approaches infinity of a function one over that value is 0. If there are an infinite number of possible, unique permutations, then the probability of one unique permutation occurring is 0. Unique doesn't mean "ordered," mind you. It is just as unlikely for those dots to be arranged in four rows of dots, with each row having dots of alternating colors, as it is for those dots to go back to their initial state; that is also just as unlikely as having this red dot here, and this blue dot there, and those dots over there, and these dots over here. In short, all particular permutations are equally unlikely (or impossible if there happen to be infinite permutations).

Well, why am I discussing this? I probably remembered something incorrectly anyways, since the last time I watched these videos was in senior year of high school. Here, take a look at his videos. Lecture 5, The Distinction of Past and Future, is the video related to this topic...

[secret]

From that lecture provided, Feynman mentioned that the one sided/irreversible nature of time is because of the irregular motion of particles. So an ordered state will eventually get to a disordered state, where everything is mixed up and uniform.

In the perspective of one particle, the laws are time reversible/time invariant but as you put more particles in the system, it becomes less likely for them to be in a separated state.

This leature also gives me a clearer idea of what entropy is (via feynman's damp towel analogy). Temperature is like a measure of the potential of the transfer of energy from one system to another while entropy is a measure of the distribution of energy in the system. Using the fact that ordered things became disordered (and his towel analogy), Feynman illustrate how the energy of the system become more evenly distributed over time, or how usable energy in a closed csystem decrase with time

Jun 7, 2011 0:27:22 GMT Fringe Pioneer said:

Now, what most textbooks will imply is that the probability of the dots not staying/returning to their initial state is 0. What they don't make clear is that, as a matter of fact, the dots going into any one particular state is just as likely as the dots going back to their initial state, i.e. 0. Indeed, the limit as a value approaches infinity of a function one over that value is 0. If there are an infinite number of possible, unique permutations, then the probability of one unique permutation occurring is 0. Unique doesn't mean "ordered," mind you. It is just as unlikely for those dots to be arranged in four rows of dots, with each row having dots of alternating colors, as it is for those dots to go back to their initial state; that is also just as unlikely as having this red dot here, and this blue dot there, and those dots over there, and these dots over here. In short, all particular permutations are equally unlikely (or impossible if there happen to be infinite permutations).

If P(any particular state) -> 0 , why we say the state where the dots are arrange in a certain pattern ordered while the other states disordered? (i.e. The other states are also regular in that each dot is at a specific position)

In addition there's another thing that bugs me. Is the formation of memory from past events considered an open system? because the entropy of this system seemed to be decreasing

[secret]

Rebooting this thread cause I finally have the Premonition timeline graph pieced together

Found in this link (work in progress)
secretuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_graph

My interpretations are found in the talk page of the premonition thumbnail