State of matter debate

[Anonymousperson5]

Due to the disagreements on Dan-ball wiki and forums, we are not sure what state of matter several elements are. The current version is this:

Powders:
AFFECTED BY WIND AND GRAVITY, DRAG-ABLE, STABLE IF LEFT ALONE
Powder
Seed
Gunpowder
Snow
Superball
Fireworks
Stone
Virus
Ant (Living)?
Bomb
Salt
Bird (Living)?

Liquids:
AFFECTED BY WIND AND GRAVITY, SPREADS OUT, DRAG-ABLE
Water
Oil
Magma
Nitro
Soapy
Acid
Mercury

Solids:
NOT AFFECTED BY WIND OR GRAVITY, DRAG-ABLE SEMI-SOLIDS, NON-DRAG-ABLE SOLIDS
Wood (Semi-solid)
Fan
Ice
Clone
C-4
Torch
Metal
Charged metal
Vine (Semi-solid)
Glass
Charged glass
Fuse

Gases:
A POWDER BUT NOT AFFECTED BY GRAVITY POSITIVELY
Gas

Plasmas:
NOT AFFECTED BY WIND OR GRAVITY BUT HAS OWN ALGORITHM FOR MOVING
Laser
Thunder

Particles:
AFFECTED ONLY BY WIND AND ITS OWN ALGORITHM
Steam

Unknown:
STATE IS UNKNOWN
Spark??
Fire??
Bombed metal??
Charged ant??

Other Classifications:

Lighter elements:
ELEMENTS THAT LIGHT
Fire
Torch
Magma
Laser
Thunder
Charged Glass
Charged Metal
Spark

Combustible elements:
BLOWS UP QUICKLY AND VIOLENTLY
Gunpowder
Nitro
Gas
C-4

Flammable elements:
BURNS BUT IS NOT COMBUSTIBLE
Powder
Seed
Wood
Superball
Oil
Ant
Vine
Bird
Fuse

Cryogens:
COLD THINGS
Ice
Snow

Replicators:
CAN REPLICATE THINGS
Clone
Fireworks
Virus

Life:
STIMULATES LIFE
Ant
Virus
Bird
Wood
Vine

Unstable:
DISAPPEARS
Fire
Spark
Charged virus (not with clone)
Steam

Key:
??=Up for debate
?=Possible for debate

ON DEBATE:
SPARK
FIRE
BOMBED METAL
CHARGED ANT

Due to the fact that Spark is affected by wind, and that it is affected by gravity, and is drag-able, Spark is considered a powder. However, some debate it as to be a Gas or Plasma, or something entirely different, because of its strong pushing force, possibility to disappear, and the fact that it is a lighter element.

Fire is a lighter element. It is affected by wind but not by gravity. It appears to be a gas, but could also be a plasma. It is less controversial than spark and may be placed with it into another entirely different category.

Bombed metal quickly changes states, something only ant can do, and ant cannot change back. Bombed metal is elusive in this way. It could possibly be classified in an entirely new category. It also has it's own pre-defined algorithm and is affected by wind, so it may also be a particle.

Charged ant meets all the current conditions for a plasma. It also is different that it is not destroyed with block and builds, which nothing else does. It is also affected by drag.

[Qwerty]

Spark is, by its very nature, not a powder. There is nothing powder-like about it. We must define elements by what they are, not by which properties they fulfill. We should add a clause to the powder section about stability: Spark is not stable, which is one of its most important properties.

[kuraikiba]

I agree. Let's see:

Bird: Not a state, but rather, a sentient. It has demi-AI patterns for landing, changing direction, and such.

Fire: Definitely a gas in form. Gas is closest you can get.

Charged things don't change. They retain their states.

Ant: Another Sentient.

Big one: Spark. It's a tough one. It naturally dissapates, so it is degenerative, and it spread in a preset manner. In essence: It is a Force. Naturally. I guess, I don't know, I'm tired.

[Anonymousperson5]

Hmm...
Spark should probably be an entirely new state of matter.
Ant is a powder in that it is denser than all liquids, except for mercury, which nothing is denser than. Ant also stays put in powders neither rising not falling.
Bird stays in powders, but is not affected by gravity. It might be a gas, but it might be a powder. For consistency it is placed in powders with ants, so that the only living elements are powders.

[speedyclock]

Spark is a plasma. It is affected unusually by Gravity.

[Qwerty]

Of course, Spark is most similar to Fire, so they should probably be in the same range. Fire definitely seems Plasma-y to me.

[Anonymousperson5]

But Plasmas are not affected by wind. If you make very windy conditions, and then place fire, it will contort.
Spark is affected by wind. Try the same thing as above.

[vaconcovat]

Then it could be considered a gas/plasma. Hard to define.

[Rabidbadger]

Plasmas:
NOT AFFECTED BY WIND OR GRAVITY BUT HAS OWN ALGORITHM FOR MOVING

Seems like Spark is definately a plasma. It isn't affected by wind or gravity, as shown in this picture:

[noodlesoup]

If you put a group of separated pixels of spark on the screen, some of them will move down, but none up. Also, spark is affected by wind.

[speedyclock]

Then spark is a gas.

Fire is a plasma.

[noodlesoup]

It would fit into the definition for powders, since gases are "not affected by gravity".

Also, try pen-s 0 and pen-lock on start with spark. If you make a vertical column, none of the spark pixels will stray on the x-axis. If you make a horizontal column, sparks will move on both axes.

[Qwerty]

Spark is nothing like a gas. We need to define things by what makes most sense, not by which set of properties they fulfill. Spark is supposed to be fire-like in nature, but without the wind.

[ganondorfchampin]

Fire is NOT a plasma, if plasma cannot be affected by wind. Fire is a gas, if a gas is an element unaffected by gravity but affected by wind.

[noodlesoup]

But don't the properties they fulfill make the most sense for organizing the elements? Does it matter how the 'elements' behave in the real world?

That was mainly to Qwerty.

[speedyclock]

Tempy, you have it all wrong. Powder state of matter is based on properties. Just like M4 said. Topic is over.

[Anonymousperson5]

Where should they go?

And what about steam and charged ant and charged metal?

[noodlesoup]

Spark's closest to a powder but still doesn't totally fit the definition, so I don't know.

I think steam should stay a gas. (Fits all criteria)

[secret]

Most elements in powder game have little to no analogue to those in reality

Thus it is reasonable to classify them in terms of the properties it fulfill

E.g. Fire in reality is a plasma, and plasma can be affected by wind, magnetic field etc.(since it is just a bunch of ions and electrons)
However if we attempt to use the rules of reality all the time, then things will get
Extremely complicated.

Thus for fire, as it moves against gravity, and is easily swayed by wind. and all its dots move randomly. It fits the definition of a pg gas.
Also as it disappears soon, that means it is unstable.

Thus pg fire: unstable gas

For steam, in reality it's an aerosol of liquid water droplets, and it spread like a gas
But in pg, steam is motionless when there's only gravity
Thus it is like a gas in many aspects, except it is unaffected by gravity

Therefore it can be classified as particles
It is unstable, thus: unstable particles.

For charged ant, since it follows a predefined pattern and is unaffected by anything except Drag, it is a pg plasma.

Charged metal is still a non drag able solid as the game treat the thunder and metal separately.

Spark in reality is some heated or ionized metal fragments
But in pg it is complicated

According to various data here, spark seems to be affected by gravity
And it also can be affected by wind and Drag

Thus spark can be a gas

However spark seemed to follow a predefined pattern (it spreads, but not in a random manner as gas, also it spread evenly instead of mainly upwards, as in fire)
In addition, the velocity of all spark dots are the same, and they are not motionless upon placing. This make it works similar to laser.

Which means spark can be a plasma

So spark can be both a plasma and a gas.
I'll let the community to decide on this one.

Bombed metal in reality are metal fragments
In pg it travels in a parabola

Someone need to test whether it can be Dragged or blown in this state.
Then it could either be a powder or a plasma.

[speedyclock]

Fire is not a plasma. Fire isn't even a substance. Fire is a reaction. It's hot gases that undergo rapid chemical reactions. Combustion.

[noodlesoup]

But does spark follow a predefined pattern? It just seems to me that the particles repel each other, and other than that, it's an unstable, light powder.

[Anonymousperson5]

Bombed metal appears to be able to be blown.
For steam, I'm not sure.
It still could be a gas, because fire is also unaffected by gravity, it simply flies up because of the wind it creates itself.
And spark appears to have no pre-defined pattern. It simply repels itself. So maybe an unstable powder.
And the movement of charged ant is predictable. But the random movement created often with multiple ants is still very obscure. And that has no known pattern.

[secret]

Jan 23, 2011 6:28:56 GMT Anonymousperson5 said:

Bombed metal appears to be able to be blown.
For steam, I'm not sure.
It still could be a gas, because fire is also unaffected by gravity, it simply flies up because of the wind it creates itself.
And spark appears to have no pre-defined pattern. It simply repels itself. So maybe an unstable powder.
And the movement of charged ant is predictable. But the random movement created often with multiple ants is still very obscure. And that has no known pattern.

hmm, if Bombed Metal can be blown, then it is enough to classify it as: stable powder (along with the fact that it is pulled by gravity)

For Fire, if we can somehow prove that Fire dots generates the wind itself and that the wind push it upwards, then it is enough to classify it as an: unstable particle. (Affected by all known force except gravity)

For Steam, it can be blown by Fan and Wind, and can be dragged, but it is unaffected by gravity. Then it is an: unstable particle

For Spark, I need someone to check whether all the dots travels with the same velocity. Also does gravity pull it downwards or upwards? (As it seems it spreads quite evenly in all directions)
Also, Fire, Spark, Bird, Laser are the only few elements that are not initially at rest when placed, maybe this can be used for reference?

For many charged ants interacting together, there should be a predefined but chaotic parttern hidden within the pg codes, but idk...

Summarizing the above, i think it is Gas that becomes unique, since it is the only element where its dots moves randomly at different velocities, it spreads like a liquid, and it has all properties of particles plus repulsive against gravity

[noodlesoup]

Gravity pulls spark downwards. The repelling effect between each spark particle just makes it seem totally random, since some sparks push others up and all over the place and because the effect of gravity on each particle is weak to begin with. Judging on tests (2px tall columns of spark at the same y-coordinates), repelled sparks don't travel at the same speed.(This was tested zoomed in and frame-by-frame by counting pixels)

[speedyclock]

Damnit. I guess I was ignored. Back on Secret. You stated Fire was plasma. Fire is not a plasma. The gas particles making the combustion effect IN fire can become plasma. But the fire itself isn't even matter. It's just a reaction.

[Qwerty]

You see, the problem is, Gas doesn't move randomly. It arranges itself into an alternating pattern. If, by our own definitions, fire is a gas and gas is not a gas, but a plasma, then we need to change the property set for each state of matter. It is hardly accurate if Gas is not considered a gas by your own definition.

[noodlesoup]

Pattern in gas movement? Huh?

[Qwerty]

Yeah, gas tries to arrange itself into an alternating pattern. It's used in "Cloud computing".

[noodlesoup]

It doesn't try to arrange itself into a zig-zag pattern, it is just able to exist that way under odd circumstances due to the special property bird has of not letting gas seep up and through it. The gas pixels can't move up because the bird, but also have no reason to move elsewhere because they aren't directly adjacent to another gas pixel on either axis.

This does show that gas isn't totally random in its movements, but does that support that it is a plasma?

Still, its bouncing interaction with other gas pixels does have randomness.
It gets randomness on the x-axis when powders are to the left and right.
And it is still affected by wind.

[Qwerty]

In that case, there ARE no plasmas: There's randomness in the motions of everything, possible exception being charged ant, and there's nothing plasma-like about an ant burrowing through stuff.